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Old 07-16-2008, 03:51 AM   #31
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I'm starting to think SeattleUte would be a Mullah bishop: an intolerant hardliner.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by MikeWaters View Post
A lady in my neck of the woods was prosecuted after leaving her kid in the car while drunk.

They occasionally do prosecute, esp. if you are black, hispanic, poor.
Or drunk....

WTF?
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:05 PM   #33
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Good grief, by now leaving a child to die of heat exhaustion in a closed car is like diving in three feet of water. Who doesn't understand the the consequences of that? I can understand having a great deal of pity for a parent who becomes momentarily distracted and the kid suddenly winds up at the bottom of the pool. But leaving a kid in a car in 100 degrees is different. I have no problem with the state intervening to protect young children from abusive parents. This is a form of child abuse, and if the child dies in such a situation, there should be criminal sanction just as surely as if the parent beat the child to death. FWIW, IMHO. Can't believe Rocky and I agree on anything.
Yeah, that should definitely send up a red flag that you're talking out of your ass...

No one disagrees that if there's any evidence that she did this on purpose, that this happens regularly, etc that it's abuse/neglect and she should be criminally prosecuted. Of course she understands the consequences of leaving a kid in a hot car, just like the guy who accidentally runs over his child also understands the consequences of running a tire over his child's head. That doesn't make either abuse or neglect on its own.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:27 PM   #34
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Yeah, that should definitely send up a red flag that you're talking out of your ass...

No one disagrees that if there's any evidence that she did this on purpose, that this happens regularly, etc that it's abuse/neglect and she should be criminally prosecuted. Of course she understands the consequences of leaving a kid in a hot car, just like the guy who accidentally runs over his child also understands the consequences of running a tire over his child's head. That doesn't make either abuse or neglect on its own.
An adult who runs over a child doesn't commit a crime unless there are extenuating circumstances indicating gross neglect such as drunkenness or speeding in a school zone or other like factors. How long does it take to kill a child in a hot car? Hours? How much notice does the parent have that the day is hot and the child is in the car that is closed up?

Even if she was ignorant of the lethal consequences she was callous of her child's personal comfort. How long would she sit in a closed car in 100 degree temporature? She abused the child.

For that matter, no one should leave their small child in the car for long periods unsupervised in perfect weather.

The law is on my side. You and others here who disagree wiht me are on the lunatic fringe.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer because your abilty to analogize sucks. You'd probably not do so well on IQ tests either.

The point isn't that it was necessarily premeditated murder. The point is she was guilty of gross neglect, like a reckless driver.

This board sure has cured me of any notion doctors are gods. They say the dumbest things sometimes, even about human health.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:37 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
An adult who runs over a child doesn't commit a crime unless there are extenuating circumstances indicating gross neglect such as drunkenness or speeding in a school zone or other like factors. How long does it take to kill a child in a hot car? Hours? How much notice does the parent have that the day is hot and the child is in the car that is closed up?

Even if she was ignorant of the lethal consequences she was callous of her child's personal comfort. How long would she sit in a closed car in 100 degree temporature? She abused the child.

For that matter, no one should leave their small child in the car for long periods unsupervised in perfect weather.

The law is on my side. You and others here who disagree wiht me are on the lunatic fringe.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer because your abilty to analogize sucks. You'd probably not do so well on IQ tests either.

The point isn't that it was necessarily premeditated murder. The point is she was guilty of gross neglect, like a reckless driver.

This board sure has cured me of any notion doctors are gods. They say the dumbest things sometimes, even about human health.
Sheesh, get off your high horse already. I did not "equate" the two. I was indicating that certain horrible things happen that will haunt the person involved until the day they die. I cannot imagine ever having peace after being involved in either type of incident.
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Old 07-16-2008, 03:46 PM   #36
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Sheesh, get off your high horse already. I did not "equate" the two. I was indicating that certain horrible things happen that will haunt the person involved until the day they die. I cannot imagine ever having peace after being involved in either type of incident.
I was talking to ER, not you.
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
An adult who runs over a child doesn't commit a crime unless there are extenuating circumstances indicating gross neglect such as drunkenness or speeding in a school zone or other like factors. How long does it take to kill a child in a hot car? Hours? How much notice does the parent have that the day is hot and the child is in the car that is closed up?

Even if she was ignorant of the lethal consequences she was callous of her child's personal comfort. How long would she sit in a closed car in 100 degree temporature? She abused the child.

For that matter, no one should leave their small child in the car for long periods unsupervised in perfect weather.

The law is on my side. You and others here who disagree wiht me are on the lunatic fringe.

I'm glad you're not a lawyer because your abilty to analogize sucks. You'd probably not do so well on IQ tests either.

The point isn't that it was necessarily premeditated murder. The point is she was guilty of gross neglect, like a reckless driver.

This board sure has cured me of any notion doctors are gods. They say the dumbest things sometimes, even about human health.
This is really choice, SU. I never had a higher opinion of attorneys (or Utes) so my world fortunately remains unshattered.

What the hell did I have to say about human health? Did I actually say this was healthy for kids? I was arguing where the standard for neglect lies, not whether it good for your kids to bake them in the car. Surely, your brilliant analytical skills and high IQ could grasp that. But maybe you work on a whole different level that dumb ol' me just can't quite understand.

My personal experience in raising children, as well as the experience of a number of others both on and off this board, would argue for some leniency here, as many of us have made mistakes that, in the wrong set of circumstances, may have been lethal. I would point out that the legal system, set up by your fellow brilliant attorneys, with their high IQs and brilliant "analogization" skills, with much more information than either of us have, has agreed with me. But maybe they too represent the "lunatic fringe". Would not be the first time I've considered lawyers to be in that group.

I would guarantee that I spend far more time working with cases of true abuse and neglect than you do. But really, I'm happy to hear the opinions of the ivory tower, with your two-income family, your nanny, and your chef-prepared meals, of what the standard for parenting should be.

So preach on...

Last edited by ERCougar; 07-16-2008 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:22 PM   #38
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This is really choice, SU. I never had a higher opinion of attorneys (or Utes) so my world fortunately remains unshattered.

What the hell did I have to say about human health? Did I actually say this was healthy for kids? I was arguing where the standard for neglect lies, not whether it good for your kids to bake them in the car. Surely, your brilliant analytical skills and high IQ could grasp that. But maybe you work on a whole different level that dumb ol' me just can't quite understand.

My personal experience in raising children, as well as the experience of a number of others both on and off this board, would argue for some leniency here, as many of us have made mistakes that, in the wrong set of circumstances, may have been lethal. I would point out that the legal system, set up by your fellow brilliant attorneys, with their high IQs and brilliant "analogization" skills, with much more information than either of us have, has agreed with me. But maybe they too represent the "lunatic fringe". Would not be the first time I've considered lawyers to be in that group.

I would guarantee that I spend far more time working with cases of true abuse and neglect than you do. But really, I'm happy to hear the opinions of the ivory tower, with your two-income family, your nanny, and your chef-prepared meals, of what the standard for parenting should be.

So preach on...
They usually do get leniency, where the facts warrant leniency, for the reasons you said. The story here is a case in point. But as a matter of law and public policy this should be a crime and subject to criminal prosecution, as it is.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:16 PM   #39
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This is really choice, SU. I never had a higher opinion of attorneys (or Utes) so my world fortunately remains unshattered.
You cut me to the quick, ER.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:36 PM   #40
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They usually do get leniency, where the facts warrant leniency, for the reasons you said. The story here is a case in point. But as a matter of law and public policy this should be a crime and subject to criminal prosecution, as it is.

This statement being true I am having a hard time understanding what the dispute here is all about.
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