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Old 10-14-2007, 04:49 AM   #31
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Gore is an idiot. HE may have been counterproductive. But you are asking too much for the average schmuck like me to be able to figure this out for all topics.

Why do you hate creationists? I find it hard to understand that. I suppose if you want to make sure this sort of bad thinking doesn't leak into policy, I can understand that, but I think we face more problems from simple pork barrel politics (when it comes to skewing policy in non-scientific directions) than we do from creationists.

Btw, 'working assumption' is OK for me. You are the one that first said scientists 'know' something. Look at your first post.
Oh I'm not denying that we do, in fact, "know" lots of things. I just find that these conversations tend to inevitably turn into foofy existential debates about the possibility of "knowing" anything. Such debates certainly have merit, but I don't find them particularly stimulating. I just allow people to think of all of science as plastic in these situations, since it's easier than trying to delineate the amount of confidence we have in various bits of information. There are certain things that we know 99%, and there are other things that we are willing to temporarily accept as a foundation for further work, as doing so is necessary for progress. If these foundational bits are adjusted, then the work in which they are employed will also be adjusted. I gave several examples of each earlier in this thread.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:52 AM   #32
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Oh I'm not denying that we do, in fact, "know" lots of things. I just find that these conversations tend to inevitably turn into foofy existential debates about the possibility of "knowing" anything. Such debates certainly have merit, but I don't find them particularly stimulating. I just allow people to think of all of science as plastic in these situations, since it's easier than trying to delineate the amount of confidence we have in various bits of information. There are certain things that we know 99%, and there are other things that we are willing to temporarily accept as a foundation for further work, as doing so is necessary for progress. If these foundational bits are adjusted, then the work in which they are employed will also be adjusted. I gave several examples of each earlier in this thread.
I keep getting the feeling you are talking to someone other than me, like I walked into a lecture you are giving to a class of which I am not a member. Like I said, working assumption is OK for me.

Oh well. NIce to have another hard science type around, as there are already too many stinkin' lawyers.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:18 AM   #33
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I keep getting the feeling you are talking to someone other than me, like I walked into a lecture you are giving to a class of which I am not a member. Like I said, working assumption is OK for me.

Oh well. NIce to have another hard science type around, as there are already too many stinkin' lawyers.
I apologize if I seem that way. I do tend to think one step ahead since I have so much experience with these conversations and they tend to take similar tracks. I'll try to be more patient in the future.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:48 AM   #34
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I apologize if I seem that way. I do tend to think one step ahead since I have so much experience with these conversations and they tend to take similar tracks. I'll try to be more patient in the future.
I assume that is a joke. I certainly didn't feel like you were too far ahead of me. Far from it. I felt like you were tracting and you were giving me your door approach while fully ignoring what I was saying. IS that a little clearer? IOW, despite your obvious affection for the scientific method, you dispalyed a rather surprising unwillingness to use those principles in this discussion. But then, maybe that's why you used the smiley face.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:52 PM   #35
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Science isn't ashamed of changing its conclusions. It's what science is all about, what science does, for crying out loud.
I don't disagree, but I do think it is interesting that much of what we now believe to be true from science was not, in fact, widely accepted for years and sometimes decades after it had been discovery. There are myriad examples of this. It seems to be human nature to not want to give up up what is "known."

My point is only that while we often fault the church leaders of not adapting swiftly enough to on the blacks and the priesthood issue and other issues, the reality is that many scientific disciplines have also been remarkably slow to incorporate new things though I think that is less true lately. Just an observation about human nature, not trying to compare apples to apples.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:33 PM   #36
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I don't disagree, but I do think it is interesting that much of what we now believe to be true from science was not, in fact, widely accepted for years and sometimes decades after it had been discovery. There are myriad examples of this. It seems to be human nature to not want to give up up what is "known."

My point is only that while we often fault the church leaders of not adapting swiftly enough to on the blacks and the priesthood issue and other issues, the reality is that many scientific disciplines have also been remarkably slow to incorporate new things though I think that is less true lately. Just an observation about human nature, not trying to compare apples to apples.
But that is not a critique on the scientific method. On the contrary. It's a comment about human nature. The scientific method is what saves us from descent into dogma that you describe. Yes, a certain class of humans, perhaps the majority, prefer a psychic security they receive from dogma. It's not surprising that scientists, being human, would from time to time fall into this trap.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:39 PM   #37
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Default Maybe the links were a part of an ...

emperical fact gathering study?

I simply find articles fascinating ... as fascinating as:

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/...hic/atlas.html
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