Carry over from CB to Archaea... - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-06-2006, 05:48 PM

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=1741459

I'd rather have this conversation here...

I wont disagree with you that we have one of the highest standards of decency in the world.

However, despite our high standards we too have been guilty of the exact kind of hate and bloodlust that we claim to be the "evil" in our enemy.

What I was seeing on CB today really made me sick. The way many of the posters over there portray "all" Muslims as the modern version of the Lamanites is flat out racism. It honestly reminds me of the type of propaganda the Nazis used to portray the Jews as sub human.

Am I so far out on a limb here?

Is it so impossible to see how we could be reasonably thought of as evil by those who look at us as oppressors?

MikeWaters · 02-06-2006, 06:04 PM

I haven't been following the conversation on cougarboard....

but I will say that there seem to be two camps:

1) we are fighting an illegitimate branch of extremists among Muslims

2) we are engaged in a clash of cultures and beliefs, that in the most extememe fashion, is manifest in terrorism and war.

THe PC answer is #1.

The more disconcerting answer is #2. I think it would be a mistake to disregard #2.

Archaea · 02-06-2006, 06:09 PM

We do need to moderate our views of Muslims as evil, because that's overly simplistic, inaccurate and doesn't contribute much to political discourse.

However, to ignore the cultural hatred brewed within those societies would be unwise.

Frankly, the Muslim world is so much a puzzle, I only possess questions, not answers.

There is no centralized authority, no mechanism to molify the radical elements.

The only answer I see is secularization.

DirtyHippieUTE · 02-06-2006, 06:18 PM

It is definately a war of cultures... Many of them are taught that we are the reason for their troubles (so they hate us) and we don't like it when they throw things at us. If it weren't for the fact that we all have to co-exist on the same globe and that they happen to sit on the part of that globe where all of the oil is, I don't think this would be such a problem.

My only reason for pointing out some of the "evils" in US history is to illustrate that it is possible that a reasonable person might be able to make a legitimate argument that the US is a "blood thirsty" nation.

Honestly, I have no idea how some people can be so blinded by their own sense of what is "right."

Archaea · 02-06-2006, 06:22 PM

Self-criticism.

It is a learned trait.

Introspection.

Difficult to do.

Alkili · 02-06-2006, 06:23 PM

This is not meant as a representation of magnitude of the problem, but I think it follows the same kind of Idea.

A few years back one of the protesters at General Conference had some Garments and was swinging them around his head and throwing them on the ground and showing them off to everyone. Finally one person had enough and took the garments from the protester and was later arrested for it.

The man who took the garments from the protester was wrong to do it, but I can understand his anger. This may be a similar feeling that Muslims have for the protesters. They know they are wrong but deep down they almost wish they are protesting to. I wish people would stand up a little more for what they believe, but would rather have people be more empathetic for others beliefs and feelings.

I’m not going to go blow up any building, but then I wasn’t taught that, that was an option.

Archaea · 02-06-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alkili

This is not meant as a representation of magnitude of the problem, but I think it follows the same kind of Idea.

A few years back one of the protesters at General Conference had some Garments and was swinging them around his head and throwing them on the ground and showing them off to everyone. Finally one person had enough and took the garments from the protester and was later arrested for it.

The man who took the garments from the protester was wrong to do it, but I can understand his anger. This may be a similar feeling that Muslims have for the protesters. They know they are wrong but deep down they almost wish they are protesting to. I wish people would stand up a little more for what they believe, but would rather have people be more empathetic for others beliefs and feelings.

I’m not going to go blow up any building, but then I wasn’t taught that, that was an option.

You can argue all of us become angry.

True enough, but true religion teaches man to tame himself. Taken as a whole, Islam, which is termed as submitting oneself to God, does not seem to tame itself.

It doesn calm a person but enrages him.

Therefore it is false religion.

Alkili · 02-06-2006, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

You can argue all of us become angry.

True enough, but true religion teaches man to tame himself. Taken as a whole, Islam, which is termed as submitting oneself to God, does not seem to tame itself.

It doesn calm a person but enrages him.

Therefore it is false religion.

I've been taught that satan copies everything that God does but he puts his own little twists in it. That is how I see Islam, it has a lot of good things in it but I believe that satan is the father of it.

I understand that may be a very extreme view but its mine and I'll except it. I also think the same thing of Church of Scientology, but thats a whole different issue that I have.

All-American · 02-06-2006, 08:14 PM

Here's my response to all of that:

What religion:

1.) Teaches that only followers of their religion are true followers of God and will go to heaven?

2.) Teaches that those who do not believe in their religion will ultimately be removed from the earth, both by bloodshed and by divine intervention?

3.) Teaches that it's better for a non-believer to die if it results in other nations believing?

4.) Is responsible for a violent attack against innocents on September 11?

And again, I'm not referring to Islam.

Archaea · 02-06-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

Here's my response to all of that:

What religion:

1.) Teaches that only followers of their religion are true followers of God and will go to heaven?

2.) Teaches that those who do not believe in their religion will ultimately be removed from the earth, both by bloodshed and by divine intervention?

3.) Teaches that it's better for a non-believer to die if it results in other nations believing?

4.) Is responsible for a violent attack against innocents on September 11?

And again, I'm not referring to Islam.

A gross mischaracterization of the Church's teachings, at least in context.

!. Highest degree of heaven, after a full teaching in this and an in the next life.

2. The removal by bloodshed is due to lack of protection, not my Divine Intervention.

3. ONE instance in all of our existence, and the prophet was reluctant, not happy in doing it.

4. The religion was NOT responsible for 1857, a singular episode, otherwise repugnant to its core teachings.

Islam has the tenet of the greater and lesser jihad as part of its core tenets.

Mohammed was a warrior prophet who wedded an 8 year old. He only became a successful missionary after he went to war.

02-06-2006, 06:09 PM	#3
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	We do need to moderate our views of Muslims as evil, because that's overly simplistic, inaccurate and doesn't contribute much to political discourse. However, to ignore the cultural hatred brewed within those societies would be unwise. Frankly, the Muslim world is so much a puzzle, I only possess questions, not answers. There is no centralized authority, no mechanism to molify the radical elements. The only answer I see is secularization. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

02-06-2006, 06:22 PM	#5
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Self-criticism. It is a learned trait. Introspection. Difficult to do. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

02-06-2006, 06:23 PM	#6
Alkili Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 263	This is not meant as a representation of magnitude of the problem, but I think it follows the same kind of Idea. A few years back one of the protesters at General Conference had some Garments and was swinging them around his head and throwing them on the ground and showing them off to everyone. Finally one person had enough and took the garments from the protester and was later arrested for it. The man who took the garments from the protester was wrong to do it, but I can understand his anger. This may be a similar feeling that Muslims have for the protesters. They know they are wrong but deep down they almost wish they are protesting to. I wish people would stand up a little more for what they believe, but would rather have people be more empathetic for others beliefs and feelings. I’m not going to go blow up any building, but then I wasn’t taught that, that was an option. __________________ Dark is the Night, but I begin to see the light.

02-06-2006, 08:14 PM	#9
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	Here's my response to all of that: What religion: 1.) Teaches that only followers of their religion are true followers of God and will go to heaven? 2.) Teaches that those who do not believe in their religion will ultimately be removed from the earth, both by bloodshed and by divine intervention? 3.) Teaches that it's better for a non-believer to die if it results in other nations believing? 4.) Is responsible for a violent attack against innocents on September 11? And again, I'm not referring to Islam. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

02-06-2006, 05:48 PM	#1
DirtyHippieUTE Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,151	Carry over from CB to Archaea... http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=1741459 I'd rather have this conversation here... I wont disagree with you that we have one of the highest standards of decency in the world. However, despite our high standards we too have been guilty of the exact kind of hate and bloodlust that we claim to be the "evil" in our enemy. What I was seeing on CB today really made me sick. The way many of the posters over there portray "all" Muslims as the modern version of the Lamanites is flat out racism. It honestly reminds me of the type of propaganda the Nazis used to portray the Jews as sub human. Am I so far out on a limb here? Is it so impossible to see how we could be reasonably thought of as evil by those who look at us as oppressors?

02-06-2006, 06:04 PM	#2
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I haven't been following the conversation on cougarboard.... but I will say that there seem to be two camps: 1) we are fighting an illegitimate branch of extremists among Muslims 2) we are engaged in a clash of cultures and beliefs, that in the most extememe fashion, is manifest in terrorism and war. THe PC answer is #1. The more disconcerting answer is #2. I think it would be a mistake to disregard #2.

02-06-2006, 06:18 PM	#4
DirtyHippieUTE Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,151	It is definately a war of cultures... Many of them are taught that we are the reason for their troubles (so they hate us) and we don't like it when they throw things at us. If it weren't for the fact that we all have to co-exist on the same globe and that they happen to sit on the part of that globe where all of the oil is, I don't think this would be such a problem. My only reason for pointing out some of the "evils" in US history is to illustrate that it is possible that a reasonable person might be able to make a legitimate argument that the US is a "blood thirsty" nation. Honestly, I have no idea how some people can be so blinded by their own sense of what is "right."