07-24-2008, 12:24 AM | #131 | |
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You don't understand what I am talking about in my discussion of membership and the Church as an authority figure (and apparently because you don't understand Kohlberg). The Church as an authority that can assist with moral development is not in an either/or with what is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. We agree that the Church is a place where the Sermon on the Mount can be applied. What you don't understand is that I have posited the value of the Church as an authority figure specifically at the ritual of baptism. The ritual of baptism is a liminal activity that confers membership (and a sense of expectations and responsibility), and the Church authorizes the liminality--there is distinct value in these specific activities that can help further moral development. I know some people have gone at you a bit and you might be feeling reactionary, but please take the time to understand what I've written. I'm not asking that you agree, only that you make a sincere effort to represent my position accurately.
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. Last edited by Sleeping in EQ; 07-24-2008 at 12:30 AM. |
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07-24-2008, 12:50 AM | #132 |
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I don't know what you mean that "baptism is a continual process." It's an ordinance with a fixed point in time that has spiritual effect at that point in time. It starts you on a path, yes, but what we've been discussing is whether 8 year olds are able to apprehend the moral implications of being baptized at that point in time. As to the essentials of baptism, I say yes. That it takes a liftime of endurance, and a weekly renewal of promises, to follow Christ is beside the point.
Again, I disagree with your emphasis on the Church as defining the liminal event. For me, baptism is not about moving from non-membership to membership, but about moving from a non-follower of Christ to a follower of Christ. So the heart of what we've been discussing is whether we think 8 year olds have the moral maturation to choose to follow Christ -- to want to be a follower of Christ. Baptism is the ritual by which you signify your willingness. That the Church provides the authority for that ritual, and acts as an authority for the child thereafter, I agree with that. But Church membership doesn't make baptism a crossover event; being a follower of Christ does. The preceding paragraph is why I think we need to respect the baptisms of other Christian denominations. The "authority" may not be there, but the spiritual essentials are. It bugs me that we focus on the lack of authority rather than on the decision to follow Christ, albeit as members of a different denomination. As to the spiritual effects for the individual, the cleansing that they feel and the devotion to which they set their heart, I see little difference between baptism into the LDS Church versus baptism into the Catholic church so long as the person does it for Christ's sake, and not for the Church's.
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
07-24-2008, 01:25 AM | #133 | |
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. Last edited by Sleeping in EQ; 07-24-2008 at 01:36 AM. |
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07-24-2008, 01:44 AM | #134 |
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I agree with many of your bullet points (that people spiritually mature as they get older; res ipsa loquitor).
I disagree, however, with your main push to view baptism differently, namely, that baptism is more usefully and accurately described as a process. Baptism serves an important role as the "door" to the path, the gateway by which we must pass through to start on the journey. It's the act we perform in order to symbolize the change of heart. I wouldn't strip the ordinance of this powerful meaning. There are plenty of other ideas to describe the process of spiritual growth, of drawing closer to Christ, of enduring to the end. We need an ordinance that symbolizes the start, and baptism is it. Preserving this role for baptism does nothing to denigrate the idea that we mature in Christ.
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
07-24-2008, 03:11 AM | #135 |
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I'm astonished at the momentum of this humble subject. Astonished. 137 posts and over 1,100 hits. And it's one of the few LDS practices that's actually in the canon and non-controversial. It could even be legitimately be called doctrine and is not likely to change. What is there to talk about?
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07-24-2008, 03:15 AM | #136 | |
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Somebody bookmark this!
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Get your stinking paws off me, you damned, dirty Yewt! "Now perhaps as I spanked myself screaming out "Kozlowski, say it like you mean it bitch!" might have been out of line, but such was the mood." - Goatnapper "If you want to fatten a pig up to make the pig MORE delicious, you can feed it almost anything. Seriously. The pig is like the car on Back to the Future. You put in garbage, and out comes something magical!" - Cali Coug |
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07-24-2008, 06:04 AM | #137 |
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Mosiah 18: 7-11
And it came to pass after many days there were a goodly number gathered together at the place of Mormon, to hear the words of Alma. Yea, all were gathered together that believed on his word, to hear him. And he did teach them, and did preach unto them repentance, and redemption, and faith on the Lord. And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light; Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life— Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts. And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts. Moroni 8: 10-15 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell. Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell. For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism. ----- Would some people consider an 8 year old a little child? Yes. By maturity standards is an 8 year truly accountable for their actions? Probably not. Baptism at 8 is prudent for the church. It indoctrinates people from an early age that certain processes need to take place to progress through the church and through the eternities. It boosts the church membership substantially, it requires that parents maintain contact with the church and create social norms and patterns during the initiation period of their marriages. My baptism at 8 was a special father son moment more so than a spiritual rebirth. I wasn't agreeing to bear anybody's burdens, I wasn't willing to mourn with those who mourn, but I was willing to share a special Saturday with my mom and dad. It's a traditional ritual for active mormons more than a spiritual birth. |
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