A MORE interesting discussion about FLDS - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Spaz · 04-18-2008, 04:04 PM

To me, a far more interesting debate brought up by the FLDS situation is the separation of abuse from beliefs.

To help explain, I'll give a few examples of situations...

Case A: A child is taught from the time she's born that plural marriage is the way to go. When she turns 13, she's told by her parents to marry an old fugly dude in his fifties. Believing it's God's will, she does so willingly, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case B: Same as above, except that the girl decides she doesn't want to marry the fugly dude, and objects. She is forced to marry him, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case C: Same as case A, but this girl is seventeen when married.

Case D: Same as case B, except the girl is seventeen when married.

To me, cases B & D obviously represent sexual abuse. Case C obviously does not.

I'm undecided on Case A.

exUte · 04-18-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

To me, a far more interesting debate brought up by the FLDS situation is the separation of abuse from beliefs.

To help explain, I'll give a few examples of situations...

Case A: A child is taught from the time she's born that plural marriage is the way to go. When she turns 13, she's told by her parents to marry an old fugly dude in his fifties. Believing it's God's will, she does so willingly, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case B: Same as above, except that the girl decides she doesn't want to marry the fugly dude, and objects. She is forced to marry him, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case C: Same as case A, but this girl is seventeen when married.

Case D: Same as case B, except the girl is seventeen when married.

To me, cases B & D obviously represent sexual abuse. Case C obviously does not.

I'm undecided on Case A.

defining 'forced'. Talked into or physicially forced.

SoonerCoug · 04-18-2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

To me, a far more interesting debate brought up by the FLDS situation is the separation of abuse from beliefs.

To help explain, I'll give a few examples of situations...

Case A: A child is taught from the time she's born that plural marriage is the way to go. When she turns 13, she's told by her parents to marry an old fugly dude in his fifties. Believing it's God's will, she does so willingly, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case B: Same as above, except that the girl decides she doesn't want to marry the fugly dude, and objects. She is forced to marry him, promptly becoming pregnant.

Case C: Same as case A, but this girl is seventeen when married.

Case D: Same as case B, except the girl is seventeen when married.

To me, cases B & D obviously represent sexual abuse. Case C obviously does not.

I'm undecided on Case A.

You shouldn't be undecided on Case A, and you're wrong on Case C, IMO.

Spaz · 04-18-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

You shouldn't be undecided on Case A or C, IMO.

Explain, please.

BYU71 · 04-18-2008, 04:15 PM

I would say, meaning it is an opinion, that if you have been indoctrinated into a belief system that tells you everything a man says comes from God, you in essence have been forced.

Your reality of what is and isn't has been distorted.

Spaz · 04-18-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exUte

defining 'forced'. Talked into or physicially forced.

To me, if the girl says "I don't want to", but is married anyway, it's 'forced', regardless of coercive methods used.

Spaz · 04-18-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU71

I would say, meaning it is an opinion, that if you have been indoctrinated into a belief system that tells you everything a man says comes from God, you in essence have been forced.

Your reality of what is and isn't has been distorted.

I agree, to an extent. Taking this argument at face value and applying it to myself, all mormons have been 'forced' to not smoke. And yet, I don't feel as though that's the case.

MikeWaters · 04-18-2008, 04:18 PM

Religion, isolation, young ages--it's toxic stew.

Telling a 13 year old girl to get married is wrong, even if the girl agrees, because in that environment it is certainly coercion.

I would be A LOT more comfortable if the minimum age of marriage in FLDS was 18. I'm very uncomfortable at 16, even if it legal.

Btw, if a religious leader told me that my young daughter had to marry some guy, I would break his jaw. So I wouldn't do well in that system.

SoonerCoug · 04-18-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

Explain, please.

13 y.o. girl brainwashed into marriage=abuse. Kids that young shouldn't ever be getting married. The fact that she has been groomed for it her entire life changes nothing.

Same for the 17 y.o. The abuse is amplified by the fact that these are polygamous marriages.

If these girls really want to live polygamy, make them wait till age 21. What's the harm in that?

It'd be easier to regulate if the state legalized polygamy, but required a minimum age of 21.

FMCoug · 04-18-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

I agree, to an extent. Taking this argument at face value and applying it to myself, all mormons have been 'forced' to not smoke. And yet, I don't feel as though that's the case.

This is where this gets so tricky. I find the FLDS to be misguided and their practices abhorrent and abusive.

But there are people in this world who think me teaching my children anything not grounded in rational "fact" is abhorrent. So where do you draw the line?

Clearly those are two extremes but it is indeed a slippery slope ...

04-18-2008, 04:04 PM	#1
Spaz Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,371	A MORE interesting discussion about FLDS To me, a far more interesting debate brought up by the FLDS situation is the separation of abuse from beliefs. To help explain, I'll give a few examples of situations... Case A: A child is taught from the time she's born that plural marriage is the way to go. When she turns 13, she's told by her parents to marry an old fugly dude in his fifties. Believing it's God's will, she does so willingly, promptly becoming pregnant. Case B: Same as above, except that the girl decides she doesn't want to marry the fugly dude, and objects. She is forced to marry him, promptly becoming pregnant. Case C: Same as case A, but this girl is seventeen when married. Case D: Same as case B, except the girl is seventeen when married. To me, cases B & D obviously represent sexual abuse. Case C obviously does not. I'm undecided on Case A. __________________ "My days of not respecting you are certainly coming to a middle." -Malcolm Reynolds "It doesn't mean that if we lose a game or when we lose a game people won't then jump on and say the quest is over. Because they will. But they've missed the point." -Bronco Mendenhall on "The Quest"

04-18-2008, 04:15 PM	#5
BYU71 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,084	I would say, meaning it is an opinion, that if you have been indoctrinated into a belief system that tells you everything a man says comes from God, you in essence have been forced. Your reality of what is and isn't has been distorted.

04-18-2008, 04:18 PM	#8
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Religion, isolation, young ages--it's toxic stew. Telling a 13 year old girl to get married is wrong, even if the girl agrees, because in that environment it is certainly coercion. I would be A LOT more comfortable if the minimum age of marriage in FLDS was 18. I'm very uncomfortable at 16, even if it legal. Btw, if a religious leader told me that my young daughter had to marry some guy, I would break his jaw. So I wouldn't do well in that system.