More on miracles

[ERCougar]

I know there was a thread on this a couple of weeks ago, but I had a few thoughts on this last night that I would like some input on.

My thoughts were prompted by a patient I saw last night who came into the ER with a rapid heartrate. His heart was in a rhythm called atrial fibrillation. Without going into details, this is a rhythm in which some spend their whole life, some have very intermittent "spells", and some go in and out of it all the time. It's uncomfortable to most people, particularly when it's not rate-controlled (as this guy's wasn't).

As I was going through his history with him, it begins to be apparent that he is of the type that has fairly infrequent spells (this was his first ER visit for the problem and had no established diagnosis of atrial fibrillation). He tells me of this experience in Africa on a mission where it sounds like he was in this rhythm, received a blessing, and by the time he got to the doctor, "everything was fine". Well, my first thought was that atrial fibrillation spontaneously converts to normal rhythm all the time--I doubt it had anything to do with the blessing. My second thought was, "I'm sorry that God has cursed you back into this rhythm." I didn't say that.

This begs the question: Can we give God credit for the "saves" and not for the "misses"? That seems a bit unfair. Do we give Satan credit for the misses?

I'm ashamed to admit this, but I always sort of roll my eyes inside when I hear medical testimonies. Working in the ER, I've seen plenty of dirtbags survive and plenty of really nice people die, and it seems hard to believe that God has His hand in all of this. I've also recently moved to Utah and have witnessed the phenomenon of calling in people for blessings. By and large, these are people who are just not that sick in the first place (if you have the coherence to ask for a blessing in the ER, you're among our least sick...). So I can imagine the next fast and testimony meeting where they describe how they were so sick they had to go to the ER and were "healed" by the blessing they received. Among those that are sick, some die, some don't, and from my admittedly limited perspective, I haven't seen the blessing as a huge factor in determining things. But the problem is, I think the blessing recipient's perspective is even more limited (N of 1), and when it doesn't work, it's written off as God's will. See my experience with dirtbags and nice people above. I know that everything's not all roses in the world, but it sure seems like an awfully capricious God.

So my conclusion on miracles is that in the medical field anyway, they're far less common than people claim (I know--I can hear the voices of Moroni/Mormon echoing in my head...). I know I'm treading on sensitive ground here, as people have likely had personal experiences, but I'm just calling it how I see it. The claimed miracles I have seen are generally based on a lack of understanding of what's going on. The other category I've often seen relate to end of life issues, i.e. a doctor states you have two months to live and that was three years ago. I'm not an oncologist, but it's incredibly hard to predict how long someone has left to live. We have survival rates that are used to predict mortality but they're not absolute predictions and I have a hard time seeing doctors using them that way (although a patient could hear it that way). There's also the impact of lowered expectations. This is a common practice I use all the time in which I attempt to lower the expectations of the patient, so that a favorable outcome is a pleasant surprise. We could start a whole thread on why it's smart to do this, but suffice it to say, I'm not the only doctor to utilize this.

Anyway, in your opinion, is it a good thing to show faith in miracles, even if your "miracle" was sort of an expected outcome (like the patient at the beginning of this)? After all, these were good people, and if their faith helped support their continued good lives, isn't that more important than the medical details? Or is our ultimate object the truth, in which case this is just a misguided faith?

As a side note, I've sort of come to the conclusion, that God generally answers prayers through inspiring thoughts in people's minds. Thoughts of healing and hope are known to positively impact patients' outcomes in the medical field. Outside of it, there's the phrase that we are God's "hands", indicating a prevailing belief that he answers prayers through inspiring actions in other people. Thoughts on this?

[woot]

It's great to have your perspective. Thanks.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Adam

The righteous remnant will always have miracles. But in the Church in general, they are absent. We substitute lies and boasts for miracles in the Church today.

Interesting thought, but the reason cited for the end of miracles is "unbelief". Is skepticism (mine included) contributing to this?

Hence my thought that perhaps simple faith, even if in my view misguided, is better than no faith at all.

[woot]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Interesting thought, but the reason cited for the end of miracles is "unbelief". Is skepticism (mine included) contributing to this?

Hence my thought that perhaps simple faith, even if in my view misguided, is better than no faith at all.

It seems a decent bet that the reason "unbelief" causes miracles to cease is because they never existed in the first place, and skepticism (a form of unbelief) is how we identify the actual causes of things, or at least learn to not accept fantastical explanations for them.

[woot]

In an airport one day I picked up a copy of the Dallas Morning News. My eyes were drawn to a columnist’s report of a letter detailing a remarkable miracle. The writer’s five-year-old granddaughter, Heather, suddenly became feverish and lethargic. She breathed with difficulty, and her lips turned blue. By the time she arrived at the hospital, her kidneys and lungs had shut down, her fever was 107 degrees, and her body was bright red and covered with purple lesions. The doctors said she was dying of toxic shock syndrome, cause unknown. As word spread to family and friends, God-fearing people from Florida to California began praying for little Heather. At the grandfather’s request, a special prayer service was held in their Church of Christ congregation in Waco, Texas. Miraculously, Heather suddenly came back from the brink of death and was released from the hospital in a little over a week. The columnist concluded that Heather “is living proof that God does answer prayers and work miracles.”

That columnist has a pretty warped understanding of what "proof" is. I can understand how this might be seen as a confirmation of belief by those predisposed to do so, but a group of unrelated people performing a religious ritual at the same time as a girl is cured through unrelated means is not even close to proof. It's not even evidence.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by woot

It seems a decent bet that the reason "unbelief" causes miracles to cease is because they never existed in the first place, and skepticism (a form of unbelief) is how we identify the actual causes of things, or at least learn to not accept fantastical explanations for them.

Interesting interpretation of the scripture. I'm not sure that's the intended message.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Adam

ERCoug talks about the medical miracles that might not be miracles that he has seen. Elder Oaks, in the talk linked in my post above, cites quite a few medical miracles. I'll quote them here.

I thought this one was interesting as it was a cited miracle granted without priesthood blessing or Mormon involvement. It is good to see that Elder Oaks isn't afraid to teach that miracles are not limited to Mormons.



Some other medical miracle cites:

In the back of my mind, with each of those examples, I'm automatically considering physiologic explanations for the "miracles".

My point isn't to put limits on God's power. I don't understand how He works, and I certainly believe He could accomplish these healings. Not being involved in these examples directly, I'm not sure I can judge His role in them.

The more interesting question to me is whether faith, even if misguided, is a beneficial thing, in and of itself. My MIL, whom I truly respect as a person, sees God's hand in nearly everything. I find myself much more skeptical about things, and I honestly think some of the things she says are bunk. But I'm also not nearly as good a person as she is. I sometimes wonder if my doubt prevents me from a closer relationship with God. I certainly don't have the spiritual experiences in my life that she talks about, and I sincerely believe her purported spiritual experiences have helped her be a better person.

[Archaea]

I've never experienced a miracle. However, I hope they exist.

The empirical mind will try to explain any unexplained phenomenon as resulting from a natural series of events.

I suspect God uses the least common denominator. If one accepts there is a God, then one will probably suspect a powerful being capable of supernatural events. Whether that Being actually induces them or not is another question.

My position is that miracles, supernatural events, are rare, and usually only for those receiving the intervention. Then again, I've never really witnessed one.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by woot

That columnist has a pretty warped understanding of what "proof" is. I can understand how this might be seen as a confirmation of belief by those predisposed to do so, but a group of unrelated people performing a religious ritual at the same time as a girl is cured through unrelated means is not even close to proof. It's not even evidence.

It would seem that you don't believe in miracles; however, just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean they don't happen. One man's scientific explanation is another's miracle. It is possible for both perceptions to be true.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

It would seem that you don't believe in miracles; however, just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean they don't happen. One man's scientific explanation is another's miracle. It is possible for both perceptions to be true.

The physical world processes are miraculous to behold, and the First Cause behind is also a miracle.