Why do we need a Savior?

[RockyBalboa]

Thanks, but I'm very well aware what faith can, has done, and will continue to do for my life.

I'm sure others feel the same way about what faith can do for them.

People complicate the prinicple to the point of blurring their ability to exercise it. They become more obsessed with their intellectual ability to solve problems than they do in exercising their faith. You see it ALL the time. And I've definetly been guilty of it before.

Faith combined with intellectuailty is obviously important, but the real power of Faith is and will always be more powerful than the "deep thinkers". 100% of the time.

[Archaea]

Don't discount deep thinking.

Remember, JS was pondering the scriptures when it occurred to him to pray to God the Father.

D&C 138 was received by virtue of pondering or deep thinking.

Pondering, or deep thinking, often precedes faith. The problem is that some people never get to the second step of exercising faith. Thinking is a necessary prerequisite to exercising of faith.

[RockyBalboa]

Based on my views of faith, I've not discounted deep thinking, just put it under the legitimate power of faith. I like to think I'm a good thinker, but we can dilly dally around the actual point all we want, but you know exactly what I'm talking about Arch in relevance to my actual point.

Deep thinkers usually end up proving how smart they are, yet at the same time how arrogant & un-wise they are.

It's an interesting dichotomy.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Based on my views of faith, I've not discounted deep thinking, just put it under the legitimate power of faith. I like to think I'm a good thinker, but we can dilly dally around the actual point all we want, but you know exactly what I'm talking about Arch in relevance to my actual point.

Deep thinkers usually end up proving how smart they are, yet at the same time how arrogant & un-wise they are.

It's an interesting dichotomy.

I hope I haven't come off like that, because it certainly wasn't the intent. I certainly don't know all of the answers; I just give them as best as I understand them. Fallability is an underlying theme in all of our learning, and for that reason, faith is implicit.

As I said before, we are expected to exercize faith regarding what we don't know yet, as well as what we'll probably never learn in this life.

[RockyBalboa]

AA You haven't come across that way to me.

I enjoy your posts and how well you verse them. In fact I enjoy reading your religious posts maybe more than any of the ones on here.

Sorry if I offended you.

[All-American]

Not offended, just covering my @$$.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by All-American

Again, my belief is that sinners cannot be in the presence of God because it introduces imperfection into a system of perfection. Any structure or organization that is meant to last forever will not endure if even the slightest imperfection exists, for given an infinite amount of time and exposure to an infinite range of variables and dangers, eventually any weakness will be exploited. Notice that families are not sealed until after the members of the family have performed the cleansing ordinances and travelled the symbolic route to the celesital kingdom-- marriage would not be eternal if the two participants have not reached a level of "perfection."

i have a question about sinners int he presence of god...

did we not dwell in the presence of god as spirits before we descended to a tabernacle of flesh? did we not have free agency before we gained our current bodies?

if we did dwell in the presence of god before coming here, and if we did have free agency is it not safe to assume, in spirit form, we sinned?

if we sinned would he not have been in the middle of an imperfect structure?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

i have a question about sinners int he presence of god...

did we not dwell in the presence of god as spirits before we descended to a tabernacle of flesh? did we not have free agency before we gained our current bodies?

if we did dwell in the presence of god before coming here, and if we did have free agency is it not safe to assume, in spirit form, we sinned?

if we sinned would he not have been in the middle of an imperfect structure?

We had free agency, but under different circumstances. The big proviso was that Father would be looking over our shoulder, and thus we were very aware that certain decisions would result in our removal from His presence. Thus, our agency was much more likely deciding between two good decisions, rather than between good and evil.

This offered us a sort of protection, though at a price: one, if we did choose evil, it was rebellion in the presence of God, which results in being permanently cast out of heaven, as happened to one third of the hosts of heaven; and two, though we learned to choose good, we never learned to desire and seek good, and thus becoming like our Father. We chose the right because He was right there. (Similarly, students at BYU don't keep clean shaven because they want to honor the temple that is their body.) Hence the need for this state of probation-- we need to learn to choose good for goodness' sake. Hugh Nibley liked to quote an apochryphal source that said the angels envy man's ability to repent; that is, his ability to cast away his less-than-godlike desires and become more like God.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[Dan]

... we were all pure in the beginning, so says the scripture. I take that to mean we were not spiritual sinners before this mortality when we were in the presence of God. Also, when in the presence of God, we were not faced with adversity and temptation. With a void of such forces, there is nothing to lead one to sin. In any event, had there been such forces and had we hearkened to them, we would have faced immediate retribution for our actions. There would have been no way to learn from mistakes as we would have been immediately forced from the presence of God, such as what happened literally to Adam and Eve.

Therefore, for our eternal welfare and growth, we were given choice and temptation AND we were granted a period of time wherein our retribution would not be immediately enforced. Hence, we have a period of time to learn from mistakes and repent. If we repent, we avoid any direct retribution and our actions or choices are blotted out, as if they did not happen. But then we get into the justice-mercy discussion wherein there must be punishment for justice to be satisfied. If God does not enforce punishment where sin exists, he would cease to be God because no being or intelligence would be able to have perfect faith in him if he seemingly arbitrarily chooses not to obey certain laws of existence. The savior was provided so as to suffer for those punishments and satisfy the requirements of the laws of justice. Through the atonement God is then able to forgive us through repentance without our personal suffering for our sins. Of course, if we do not repent, we are told we will personally suffer for our sins in the same manner that Jesus suffered for them.