The Fall: Agency vs. Knowledge of Good and Evil

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Dan

Your question about trusting one's perceptions to understand God's will is a tough one to discuss in this manner. It is tough because you have to take this on faith. You have to believe that if you lower yourself in humility of body, mind and spirit before the Lord, the irrevocable and undeniable act of the Lord will be to bless you to go from a natural man state of 'while seeing, you see not' to viewing eternity through heavenly spectacles of the spiritual man. I know that is not an acceptable response for the person who wants to keep asking "but what do I have to do specifically, etc.". But that is all the answer I have to give because, as I said, you have to show faith to walk into a realm that you cannot see (humilty while expecting the Lord to guide your way) and believe the Lord will fulfill his end of the promise to truly help you understand spiritually and not as a natural man.

Heavenly spectacles? I thought "Girls Gone Wild" with Snoop Doggy Dog was part heavenly spectacle, but perhaps I would be better served with some contacts for the spiritual man.......

[Dan]

[quote="Indy Coug"]

Originally Posted by Robin

Certainly, if you blindly did everything the Church tells you to do, do you honestly think this would put you in bad stead with the Lord?

If you earnestly sought to receive a spiritual witness of the truth of anything the Church teaches, through the divinely prescribed steps outlined in scripture, do you think you'd find yourself regularly at odds with the teachings of the Church?

As to your first point Indy, I say yes and no. You are not "bad" or in wrong with the Lord if you blindly follow the brethren, etc. But at the same time, if that is what one is doing, then a crucial and most important aspect of the gospel is dead to that person. We are not here to blindly put our trust in the arm of flesh. I realize some will argue that the prophet receives guidance from God and is, therefore, not synonymous with "the arm of flesh". But in reality, the prophet is a fallible man and is flesh. So first of all, it is the responsibility of everyone to develop a pure and personal communion with God to receive witness of what the prophet says anyway.

The church is designed as a school ground to teach us to function as spiritual adults. Too many people become lifetime elementary school students. The organization of prophets, apostles, evangelists, etc. is designed to bring us to the unity of faith. What unity is that? Well, as missionaries we always claimed it was organizational unity, so that all believed the same doctrine. this is true on a superficial level. But on a deeper, spiritual, personal level (through likening the scriptures to oneself), the unity of the faith is the spiritual unity YOU attain (regardless of what others attain) through at-one-ment with God. The church is, therefore, designed to help you get to a spiritually mature point where you can embark on the path and maintain your way along the strait and narrow towards the ToL. You will be able to maintain your course through your direct personal communion with God. You will not need to depend on any other man to reveal God's word to you because God will do so directly to you.

Let me put it this way, the church is where you find the milk of the gospel. You will not be able to find the meat unless you exand yourself and your relationship with God. You must personally come to ths unity of faith or at-one-ness with God and you CANNOT do it by constantly lapping up the milk placed nicely in bow through the church. This does not mean someone then despises the church. Quite the contrary. The person loves the church even more as the person realizes how it truly can help people down the path. Once someone is going down the path, the love of God will begin to fill them and a desire to help their fellow brethren in the church and out see the path as well. Now I am not saying such people should openly, in church or otherwise, teach things like this as they are only relevant to spiritual adults. When people are prepared to become spiritual adults, these things will become manifest to them through spiritual mentors and by the Lord himself.

This may come as a bit of a suprise, but God may (dare I say probably will) ask you to do things, once you have a deep communion with him, that will not be asked of other members. General church members will not be asked because they are not ready, being spiritual children only. But the spiritual adult needs more nourishment and God will give it to such directly. He may ask you to do something which is contrary to the general rule of the church. Archaea posted a talk by an apostle in another thread that I really liked as it (whether directly or indirectly) opened up this possibility. http://cougarguard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1191 God may reveal special dispensation to one who is ready for more. For one who is ready for sanctification through the flaming sword. Let me preface that I am not a polygamist and I do not condone it, and I use this as an example only of what I am talking about as other issues could be involved, but I believe a man may be given special dispensation to practice it as it may be the very thing that (those) spiritual adult(s) need(s) to further progress. But in the church it is anathema to suggest such dispensation could come through any but the prophet.

The point is, if someone constantly follows file leaders blindly, no real spiritual growth will be had. It is for the very reason that Jesus had to leave his disciple, for them to learn to walk by the spirit and grow spiritually, that we must expand our spirits and commun directly with God through the veil instead of always just blindly following the basic principles, etc. in the church. It does not make someone "bad" for doing so, but if that is all they are doing, it sure does limit their growth, or in other words, it damns them. But we must learn to converse with the Lord through the veil (without seeing Him) before we will be allowed into his presence.

In the end, we must comprehend ourselves fully to comprehend of and partake of the nature of God. Temet Nosce.

[Indy Coug]

I think the church does a very good job of instructing its members to search the scriptures, to seek a spiritual witness, to continue learning and so forth. I certainly stressed that point repeatedly as a missionary.

That being said, I know that doing so will not put you at odds on a regular basis with the Church, certainly with regards to anything that truly matters. That is my main point.

If someone is willing to go by blind faith alone, it's at least some measure of faith and righteousness. To go beyond that point and strive for that added spiritual witness and understand the underlying eternal principles of the divine nature of God, our purpose for being here and the unlimited divine potential within us, is even better and like I said before, actively encouraged by the Church.

I just found Robin's tone about following the Church objectionable.

[Alkili]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I just found Robin's tone about following the Church objectionable.

When talking with someone who isn't on the best of terms whit the church you not only take their comments with a grain of salt, but also keep a bottle of Ipecac close by.

[creekster]

In the end, we must comprehend ourselves fully to comprehend of and partake of the nature of God. Temet Nosce.

While we are here as children of god and thus include that potenital in our nature, knowing ourselves now is really just further familairity with the natural man. WOuldn't it be more accurate to say that we should know our true nature, as opposed to our present nature? Isn't this the enitre goal of becoming 'at-one' with God (or the mighty change of heart King Benjamin talks about)? Perhaps this is what you mean,as I read this thread pretty quickly. But it seems to me that you are really talking about knowing the pre-fall self, not the post-fall self (which is why the story of the fall is so important and repeated so often).

Also, by being asked to somethign most in the church aren't, are you suggesting that God would ask us to do something inconsistent with the rules he has given to all others? What do you mean by that? Nephi/Laban sort of thing or are you talking about something esle? Remeber, I am a spiritual child, so go easy.

[Dan]

Not the mortal fallible state in which we are now. But rather our true nature. God knows us. He did not need to send us here for Himself, we needed to be sent here for ourselves because we did not really know ourselves. How can we until we experience all things and see if we will do the will of the Lord above all else.

Some are spiritually mature enough that they are ready for more. Let me just leave it at that. God will not stunt their growth by not giving them what they need to facilitate further growth.

[Robin]

r.f.

[All-American]

Interesting conversation. Here are my two bits:

Regarding the symbolic vs. literal nature of the Garden of Eden, I tend to think of it as being more literal than symbolic, but not without ruling out a symbolic interpretation. A few general authorities, most notably Talmage, have spoken out against attributing a more heinous sin (such as a sexual sin) to Adam and Eve as a slanderous practice against two beings who deserve our respect. More than anything, there has not been a convincing alternative presented. Until somebody shows me something that convinces me otherwise, I'll go ahead and say it was the eating of the fruit, since it is really the best guess we've got.

I am with you, Robin, in saying that blindly following church council can very well result in becoming a spiritual cripple. Doing so overlooks three major pitfalls, listed in order of importance from least to greatest (for thus saith All-American):

1. The brethren are fallible and may err. (Quite frankly, though, I believe that one who tries to follow an incorrect commandment from his authorized church leaders will ultimately be blessed for it-- for example, the Martin Handcart company-- so long as he doesn't fall into the two other traps here listed.)

2. Blind obedience hinders the growth of ability and capacity by removing the decision from the situation. It is infinitely better to ponder a situation, evaluate both sides, and make a rational decision than to blindly follow council, as even Brigham Young has stated. You won't get me to say, however, that blind obedience is preferable to blind disobedience. When you've thought out the situation, can come up with no rational answer, but still feel strongly that the will of the Lord entails a certain action, I believe you will be better off following that action. To this day, I have never followed anything I felt might have been a prompting from the spirit and regretted doing so, with but one exception. This exception comes from a situation that I should have thought out first, rather than throwing caution to the wind when I thought I was on to something.

3. Blind obedience may cause us to lose sight of the bigger commandment. To illustrate, my high school english teacher was once waiting for a ride inside of a building on the BYU campus on a Saturday night. It was cold, dark, and raining. When 12:00 came by, a janitor removed him and his friend from the building, citing a need to close before the Sabbath. Mormons are notorious for zealously following lesser laws, such as the word of wisdom, wearing white shirts, avoiding rated r movies, etc., but missing such basic fundamentals as truly loving your neighbor.

[Dan]

... of the creation and fall, BY summed it up best when he compared the such events to a child's story that a parent tells a child when the child is asking about things the child really cannot comprehend. IOW, the creation and fall, IMO, is literal, but from the standpoint that certain events are grossly simplified and summed up in such a concise way as to fit an incredible amount of data into 5 or 10 pages of history. So yes, I do believe in the depiction in the scriptures regarding literalness, without being too literal due to scantiness of information. I don't know if my words are making sense to anyone.

But on a metaphorical, symbolic side of things, I am quite convinced that the true value we can derive from the events is how they relate to us personally. The creation and fall is a parable (in addition to depiction of literal events). The beauty of parable is that it speaks on countless levels. The creation, as it relates to each personally is about you personally. On a macro level, n the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth (i.e., he created things spiritually - "heaven" - and then he created things physically - "earth").

But on a personal level, when the "heaven" and "earth" were created, your "spirit" and then "physical body", respectively, were created. Not only do the periods of the creation depict the creation of the planet, but the depict the creation of you as an individual. The waters were separated from the waters by a placential sac in your mothers womb, etc. Land appeared as your body began to take shape. You sat for months in you "paradise", your "garden of eden" in your mothers womb. You truly were in a state of not knowing or comprehending, yet having the seed of life within you to allow you to procreate. Eventually you "fell" into the lone and dreary world in which you now live. As an infant you begin to learn the ways of the naturl man. You learn it is all about me, me, me. I want to eat, I want to sleep. I want to cry. I want to be comfortable. We grow up from infancy with the selfishness and misperceptions of the natural man firmly ingrained within us. It is our job to overcome that and become a spiritual man.

When you are forming in the womb, your spirit (in the creation parable it is more often called "Adam") is placed into your body (again, in the creation parable it is more often called "Eve"). "Adam" and "Eve" are commanded to be as one, a perfect union of spirit and body. Of course the spirit (Adam) is given dominion over the earth (Eve). But when the body (Eve) dictates to the spirit (Adam) contrary to the natural order of things, nothing but death results. This very things plays out in the creation parable. Our job is to overcome the natural man by becoming a spiritual man. To do this we must make Eve move back to her subordinate position below Adam. Or rather, our spirit must dictate to our body.

This is rather simplistic, and there are literally countless levels of understanding that can be gleaned from this parable, but I contend that the true value we gain from the creation and fall parable is how it relates to us personally. YOU are Adam. YOU are Eve. Temet Nosce.