Question about the Proclamation

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Since gays have been allowed to adopt, thousands of Americans have been killed or injured in Iraq. Just remember that, when you're thinking about this issue.

Since Ben & Jerry's introduced Peach Cobbler as an ice cream flavor, millions of houses have gone into foreclosure or are in imminent danger of doing so.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Since Ben & Jerry's introduced Peach Cobbler as an ice cream flavor, millions of houses have gone into foreclosure or are in imminent danger of doing so.

link?

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Brian

I see a lot of parents who are very mean to their children. Because I have a daughter, I see the dynamics of her friend's families. There are parents who refuse to say enough positive things to their kids. These kids come over for sleep overs and we talk to them, laugh with them, compliment them, don't yell at them to quit giggling at 3AM and they eat it up. By their behviour you can tell they are starved for positive
attention. Especially from males (fathers). And these are some active families with active leadership-calling priesthood holders. I've seen this in multiple wards in multiple states. These girls are going to get positive male attention one way or another, and if dad doesn't give it to them, they'll find someone who gladly will.

Too true. Things my daughter's have had friends tell them recently:

1. In response to my daughter saying she missed me because I was gone in Utah, the friend said "I wouldn't miss my Dad, he's mean to me."

2. Another friend told another daughter she was jealous because "your dad is fun".

And I'm certainly no super dad.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by creekster

I am not sure that it is a mistake. I think it means gender as you define it. I had assumed this is the point. If only biological, it seems to me it would make no sense to reference pre-mortal life.

Gender varies with culture--masculinity and feminity are not the same over time or even through space. Victorianism, for example, posits certain masculinities and feminities that are quite distinct from those, in say, Japan of the same time period or of ancient Greece.

Are you suggesting that the Proclamation declares that such cultural differences existed in the pre-mortal spirit world? If so, I think that is a doctrinal novelty.

The paragraph begins by making declarations regarding males and females, and spirit sons and daughters. It looks to me like an application of sexuality is being made, albeit in both a conventional physical sense and an LDS-specific spiritual sense. The spirits are sons and daughters of heavenly parents, and are not merely spiritual masculines and feminines.

[MikeWaters]

It's easy being a "fun" outsider, like a grandparent. Less satisfactory to be a fun parent.

For example, I bet you could come in and be a more "fun" scoutmaster without too much trouble.

Doesn't mean you would be a better scoutmaster.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Are you suggesting that the Proclamation declares that such cultural differences existed in the pre-mortal spirit world? If so, I think that is a doctrinal novelty.

I am not suggesting what it was intended to mean, only how I percevied it. I assumed that the use of gender was meant to convey an idea different than sex and the reference to pre-mortal gender must mean soimething other than a biological fact as the spirits had no biology (from our point of view) to display. Thus, I assumed that the statement meant that the notion of a gemder difference was created before we were assigned a biological vessel. This obvioulsy has impact for transgendered folks, etc.

I don' thtink it is likely that the statement would be so sloppy as to use gender when they meant sex, but I could certainly be wrong.

[myboynoah]

The kids in our ward all say my wife and I are the coolest parents. I'm thinking of volunteering to teach a special parenting seminar for the ward.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Gender varies with culture--masculinity and feminity are not the same over time or even through space. Victorianism, for example, posits certain masculinities and feminities that are quite distinct from those, in say, Japan of the same time period or of ancient Greece.

Are you suggesting that the Proclamation declares that such cultural differences existed in the pre-mortal spirit world? If so, I think that is a doctrinal novelty.

The paragraph begins by making declarations regarding males and females, and spirit sons and daughters. It looks to me like an application of sexuality is being made, albeit in both a conventional physical sense and the LDS specific spiritual sense. The spirits are sons and daughters, not merely masculine and feminine.

You can get unnecessarily caught up in all of the semantic complexities if you want, but I think the clear intent of the statement is to say that we weren't some amorphous, asexual spirit beings that got coin flipped into our bodies and their accompanying reproductive organs.

Because mortal frailties exist, there is the distinct possibility in very rare cases that the mortal body assignment didn't work out perfectly (people being born with both sex organs and/or "males" being born into a female body and vice versa).

The 2nd paragraph is my hypothetical $0.02 and even though I'm throwing this out, I don't believe the above to be true with any real certainty.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's easy being a "fun" outsider, like a grandparent. Less satisfactory to be a fun parent.

For example, I bet you could come in and be a more "fun" scoutmaster without too much trouble.

Doesn't mean you would be a better scoutmaster.

I don't mean "fun", I mean "not an asshole".

I know fathers who just ride their daughters at softball games. "If you'd do it like that everytime, you'd hit a home run everytime." Bark orders at their kids to shut up or go grab a diet coke.
There are plenty of kids who don't hear much positive about themselves.
Barring some miracles, these active LDS kids with two parents at home are going to have a lot of issues.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You can get unnecessarily caught up in all of the semantic complexities if you want, but I think the clear intent of the statement is to say that we weren't some amorphous, asexual spirit beings that got coin flipped into our bodies and their accompanying reproductive organs.

Don't you mean "genderless spirit beings"?