Answering Seattles challenge ...

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Do people argue that propensity for abuse is a reason to prevent marriage?

For me, the main logical reasons are a desire to preserve a "traditional" concept of a man and a woman marrying being the ideal.

This does not mean, that other arrangements don't exist and that legal consequences can't be attached to those arrangements. However, what is the societal need to call these non-traditional arrangements "marriage"? If a majority don't desire to call them legally "marriage", why are the majority insensitive and bad?

The only counter-argument that I've heard which is appealing, is, 'Why should heteros be the only ones to know the misery which is marriage?'

In fairness, you have not, so apologies. But yes, most definitely.

I have heard that ad naseum.....homosexual marriage will make it easier for homosexuals to adopt children....and homosexuals are more likely to be sexually abusive.

As for the misery, my guess is that homosexual marriage can be a pain in the butt.....

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

I read it and actually think you make a good point about choice. I just don't think it is that black and white. I believe that amid the confusion one might feel there is still volition to follow one path or the other. Seattle has suggested that no one would choose a gay lifestyle. I don't see it as that simple and wonder if there couldn't be external factors that may lead one to choose a path they've been taught to be wrong.

What I saw was a teenage boy that was an outcast, and who did things even though he knew they would keep him as an outcast. Perhaps this was his way of carving out an identity. Given his previous abuse I wondered if that experience didn't lead him to take on "homosexuality" as another component of his identity, even though he didn't need to.

Look, I'm way in over my head with this. Just sorting through some thoughts. I'm still not convinced that choice in some way might not play a role in some or even many cases.

The thing I struggle with in understanding all of this, is sexuality involves emotions. And although we can define emotions as biochemical reactions of the psycho immuno system, we seem to ignore the fact that we can impact and choose to alter our emotions.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I should add that sexual abuse is more common than people think.


http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

I don't know if these stats are accurate, but they are in the ballpark of things I have heard and read before.

One point to glean here is that 15% of gays in a parade reporting sexual abuse is not a very high number when you look at the stats above.

Based on the many reports I have read they are pretty accurate. And I have read a number of books geared to help survivors. I have thought that I might write a book on the subject one day myself.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The thing I struggle with in understanding all of this, is sexuality involves emotions. And although we can define emotions as biochemical reactions of the psycho immuno system, we seem to ignore the fact that we can impact and choose to alter our emotions.

So you are saying that you are physically capable of becoming sexually aroused by and attracted to men if you simply put your mind to it? This seems unlikely.

[SeattleUte]

General public opinion througout the United States is reflected, for example, in the prevalence of local laws making it illegal for schools to discriminate against gays in hiring teachers, and in the BSA's loss of favor with the general public. The legislative process is of course the classic venue where links such as tooblue has asserted are investigated, debated, and vetted, with the most real life consequences possible. The prevelance of local civil rights laws protecting gays' access to jobs where they interface with children is a testament to informed public opinion on this issue.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by tooblue

The simple fact of the matter is it is not discredited in whole by the larger community that deals with issues of abuse and sexuality but by a relative vocal few who have a vested interest in maintaining the political correctness gag over a more expansive study on the subject. To say it is discredited is to put your head in the sand and admit an unwillingness to delve deeper into the heart of the issue.

The percentages are undeniable Seattle. There is a direct correlation that cannot be argued. In the link Mike posted 1 – 7 homosexuals report being sexually abused. I have read elsewhere that 80% of incidents of sexual abuse go unreported. The Child pornography industry, supported by the so-called soft porn industry is a world wide billion dollar industry that shows predatory sexual behavior is epidemic. Common sense dictates a connection. Political sensitivities curtail open and outward expression of said connections.

I am not prepared to discuss all of my personal experiences in such an open forum. Yes, it is cathartic to find ways to reach out and help others. Sometimes however it is exceptionally difficult and painful. No, I am not nor have not suggested that it is exclusively an issue of choice. I only advocate that choice is a MAJOR factor. SEQ very perceptively outlines the issues with his thoughts posted in another thread;



You must understand that exposure to abuse leads to compulsive behavior that is part of a larger cycle of potentially self-destructive behavior:

http://www.stopitnow.org/asit_survivors.html

Again, I confidently assert, framed by the limitations of you intitial poll, that Homosexuality is a choice.

I still don't think you have explained what "choice" means to you.

What does it mean to say homosexuality is a choice? Do you mean there are no factors at play other than our own decision? If so, I disagree. Do you mean biology doesn't mean anything? I disagree. Do you mean choice as a result of sexual abuse? I don't call that choice. Just trying to figure out what you are talking about here.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

This is correct. Dealing with this issue on a nearly daily basis I can tell you that its about 3 to 1 hetero to homo sexual abuse against children.

Abusers don't just happen they are created. Ergo the heterosexual commiting the abuse was in fact a victim of abuse in his/her childhood.

[smokymountainrain]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

As for the misery, my guess is that homosexual marriage can be a pain in the butt.....

If it is not that, I have to assume the homosexual marriage itself is indeed miserable.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

General public opinion througout the United States is reflected, for example, in the prevalence of local laws making it illegal for schools to discriminate against gays in hiring teachers, and in the BSA's loss of favor with the general public. The legislative process is of course the classic venue where links such as tooblue has asserted are investigated, debated, and vetted, with the most real life consequences possible. The prevelance of local civil rights laws protecting gays' access to jobs where they interface with children is a testament to informed public opinion on this issue.

I don't agree with your causality argument. You use the argument that the laws expressing or making it illegal to discriminate against gays show prevailing public sentiment, when other explanations could also support the existence of those laws.

In my mind, it is more that the gay community is more active and therefore cause politicians to react to their activism, couple that with the popular media sharing the perspectives of the gay activist groups and you'll see laws enacted accordingly. The ignorant masses often just sit on their hands and might not care.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

General public opinion througout the United States is reflected, for example, in the prevalence of local laws making it illegal for schools to discriminate against gays in hiring teachers, and in the BSA's loss of favor with the general public. The legislative process is of course the classic venue where links such as tooblue has asserted are investigated, debated, and vetted, with the most real life consequences possible. The prevelance of local civil rights laws protecting gays' access to jobs where they interface with children is a testament to informed public opinion on this issue.

Again, I am speaking from personal experience. Public opinion on the subject is WOEFULLY uninformed. To be clear I am not suggesting that homosexuals are the main purveyors of abuse -such a notion is rediculous.

However political correctness stunts correlative studies for fear that one group will be targeted and discriminated against as evidence is discovered.