Now that the LDS Church has raised the

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Part of my mom's "job description" was to make sure that missionaries were taking their psychopharmaceuticals.

I wish an informed physician would chime in here, but it seems we have lots of children taking medications for psychological diseases. Does society seek it out too much, or was society just under-treated previously?

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Are you saying they unduly used their family ties to wield power?

No. I'm saying that the fact that they were relatives somehow introduced a bias. Maybe it's because they knew each other...I don't know.

I'm convinced that the vast majority of general authorities are genuinely good, sincere men who are doing their best, but sometimes make mistakes.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

No. I'm saying that the fact that they were relatives somehow introduced a bias. Maybe it's because they knew each other...I don't know.

I'm convinced that the vast majority of general authorities are genuinely good, sincere men who are doing their best, but sometimes make mistakes.

I also believe for the most part, God doesn't care who his leaders are, so long as they are devout members, who participate and work hard. Thus, leaders are free to choose those they know.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Requiem

My experience is that alot more missionaries are being sent home early, sometimes for questionable reasons and the negative consequences to the missionary and his/her family are severe and lifelong. For good reason, I have strong feelings on this topic.

Let me give you a recent (April, 2007) example. I have a niece who was serving as a missionary in Guatemala. After serving for six months, she wanted to "clear the slate" and called her MP on the phone to schedule an interview during his upcoming visit for a zone conference. He advised her to discuss the problem on the phone. She confessed a single incidence of petting not disclosed to her Bishop or SP. Thirty minutes after the phone call, the MP called her back and said she was being sent home. No personal visit, no attempt to work with her in the field. She was an outstanding missionary and had recently baptized a family with six children.

After returning home in disgrace, she and her family were isolated and shunned by her ward. Her punishment at home was three months of informal probation. No counseling, no arms of fellowship, nothing. Yes, she made a mistake, but the punishment did not fit the crime.

Here is the what this mean spirited MP hath wrought: my niece is now attending UC Northridge and is ambivalent towards the Church. Her testimony of the gospel is strong, but she will forever be labeled as a failed missionary. Her parents are not so lucky. They are now separated and in the process of divorcing after a 42 year marriage and seven children. Plain and simple, they could not withstand the isolation and judgements that followed their daughter being sent home. Some may judge that their marriage did not have a strong foundation and the daughter being sent home was merely a tipping point. I think otherwise.

Raising the bar without the application of wisdom and forgiveness is a double edged sword. There was not a sin here worthy of either disfellowshipment or excommunication. Another example of the consequences of the misapplication of Church discipline. Unrighteous dominion is pure evil.

Usually I find myself on your side of the fight. I'm against church discipline. I've seen how it has negatively affected many people and families. I think the judgement of men whether it be mission president or high council to be a bit on the Tex side of power mongering and graceless. However...when you frame a story like you just did, it basically turns nearly everyone against you, as the story you describe is very unbelievable the way you state it, not to mention whiney and mean spirited. My first reaction is to want to argue against you, though I'm on your side of the fight.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Usually I find myself on your side of the fight. I'm against church discipline. I've seen how it has negatively affected many people and families. I think the judgement of men whether it be mission president or high council to be a bit on the Tex side of power mongering and graceless. However...when you frame a story like you just did, it basically turns nearly everyone against you, as the story you describe is very unbelievable the way you state it, not to mention whiney and mean spirited. My first reaction is to want to argue against you, though I'm on your side of the fight.

I apologize for inserting too much emotion. It is easy to get carried away when it is so close to home.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas

I definately think there is a class system in the Church. I don't think it is pronounced, but it is definately there.

and thanks 71 for jacking the thread.

Sorry. What made me think of it was the more stringent rules for missionaries. Another stratification of good and better mormons. I don't know what the answer would be, as I support the notion of missionaries being better qualified or more ready to go.

However, I see class starting to crop up and Indy, I don't think it is about money, but about who is better.

BYU, that is where the churches best and brightest go. Every young man a missionary. The ones that don't go are lesser citizens. For the, I will only marry a RM girls, there status will only go up if they hook one since there will be fewer and they will be more revered.

You are a great Mom, but you work. I am a great Mom and stay at home, greater status.

I don't know, maybe this is really nothing, because right now when I actually attend church I don't see any stratification of members, it is only when I hear people talk.

Yea, I know there is the Celestial, Telestial and Terrestial, however I don't know if we as mortals get to assign our fellow members that status right now.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Requiem

My experience is that alot more missionaries are being sent home early, sometimes for questionable reasons and the negative consequences to the missionary and his/her family are severe and lifelong. For good reason, I have strong feelings on this topic.

Let me give you a recent (April, 2007) example. I have a niece who was serving as a missionary in Guatemala. After serving for six months, she wanted to "clear the slate" and called her MP on the phone to schedule an interview during his upcoming visit for a zone conference. He advised her to discuss the problem on the phone. She confessed a single incidence of petting not disclosed to her Bishop or SP. Thirty minutes after the phone call, the MP called her back and said she was being sent home. No personal visit, no attempt to work with her in the field. She was an outstanding missionary and had recently baptized a family with six children.

After returning home in disgrace, she and her family were isolated and shunned by her ward. Her punishment at home was three months of informal probation. No counseling, no arms of fellowship, nothing. Yes, she made a mistake, but the punishment did not fit the crime.

Here is the what this mean spirited MP hath wrought: my niece is now attending UC Northridge and is ambivalent towards the Church. Her testimony of the gospel is strong, but she will forever be labeled as a failed missionary. Her parents are not so lucky. They are now separated and in the process of divorcing after a 42 year marriage and seven children. Plain and simple, they could not withstand the isolation and judgements that followed their daughter being sent home. Some may judge that their marriage did not have a strong foundation and the daughter being sent home was merely a tipping point. I think otherwise.

Raising the bar without the application of wisdom and forgiveness is a double edged sword. There was not a sin here worthy of either disfellowshipment or excommunication. Another example of the consequences of the misapplication of Church discipline. Unrighteous dominion is pure evil.

This is the problem in an imperfect world or church. I am defining church here as the organization and members. Occasionally you find some real jackasses in leadership positions.

This is why I think a lot of straightening out will be done in the hereafter.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by Requiem

My experience is that alot more missionaries are being sent home early, sometimes for questionable reasons and the negative consequences to the missionary and his/her family are severe and lifelong. For good reason, I have strong feelings on this topic.

Let me give you a recent (April, 2007) example. I have a niece who was serving as a missionary in Guatemala. After serving for six months, she wanted to "clear the slate" and called her MP on the phone to schedule an interview during his upcoming visit for a zone conference. He advised her to discuss the problem on the phone. She confessed a single incidence of petting not disclosed to her Bishop or SP. Thirty minutes after the phone call, the MP called her back and said she was being sent home. No personal visit, no attempt to work with her in the field. She was an outstanding missionary and had recently baptized a family with six children.

After returning home in disgrace, she and her family were isolated and shunned by her ward. Her punishment at home was three months of informal probation. No counseling, no arms of fellowship, nothing. Yes, she made a mistake, but the punishment did not fit the crime.

Here is the what this mean spirited MP hath wrought: my niece is now attending UC Northridge and is ambivalent towards the Church. Her testimony of the gospel is strong, but she will forever be labeled as a failed missionary. Her parents are not so lucky. They are now separated and in the process of divorcing after a 42 year marriage and seven children. Plain and simple, they could not withstand the isolation and judgements that followed their daughter being sent home. Some may judge that their marriage did not have a strong foundation and the daughter being sent home was merely a tipping point. I think otherwise.

Raising the bar without the application of wisdom and forgiveness is a double edged sword. There was not a sin here worthy of either disfellowshipment or excommunication. Another example of the consequences of the misapplication of Church discipline. Unrighteous dominion is pure evil.

I've told both my daughters that they should never discuss their sex lives with Church leaders. I've told them that if they feel guilty about something and want to talk about it, they can always talk to me or to their mother. If they feel uncomfortable doing that, then I'll pay for them to talk with a professional counselor. I told them Church leaders are fine men and are generally sincere, but they have no ability to absolve anyone of anything they have done, and that if someone feels they have offended God, they should take it up with God.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I've told both my daughters that they should never discuss their sex lives with Church leaders. I've told them that if they feel guilty about something and want to talk about it, they can always talk to me or to their mother. If they feel uncomfortable doing that, then I'll pay for them to talk with a professional counselor. I told them Church leaders are fine men and are generally sincere, but they have no ability to absolve anyone of anything they have done, and that if someone feels they have offended God, they should take it up with God.

I once went on a couple of dates with a girl who told me that she had engaged in fellatio once, and she confessed to her bishop. I asked her what the bishop asked during the interview, and she said that he told her that he needed details in order to understand how serious the sin was. For example, the bishop asked whether the guy ejaculated, and he told her that this was a critical piece of information.

When I told her that the bishop was a perv, she got REALLY mad at me. I didn't go out with her again.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas

I think the girl was inviting you to participate in an unchaste act and you totally shut her down.

Then she should have told me she didn't believe in confession.