Eugene England's parting words (BYU, UoU, UVSC) - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

InTheMuss · 08-21-2005, 05:18 AM

Mike,

I'm not going to take the time to argue the U of U med school deal but I don't think it holds much water either. I know a few people on the adcom there and they're active LDS (Ingebretsen included... MD. PHD). Some schools factor things in other than GPA and MCAT. The U denies plenty of U kids with high GPA's and MCATs as well. My roommated (3.8 overall, 4.0 science, 33 MCAT) got denied there but went to OHSU.

And by the way... The state of Utah did do an investigation into the medical school and their admissions process a couple of years ago.

I grew up in Texas as well and the U is a fine academic institution. Your podunk comment reaks of sour grapes.

PS: I'm heading to bed so I most likely won't see your response for awhile.

Brian · 08-21-2005, 05:29 AM

Mike,
I'd be interested in your info.
There could be a number of reasons.
I believe the med school is required to take a certain number of utahns. Out of state byu grads would be at a disadvantage. (I don't know the in state/out of state numbers at byu). Are they equally qualified? They are probably white males, is there some AA at play?

On research universities, top 30 overall and top 25 public certainly doesn't seem podunk to me.

Good night,
Brian

OhioBlue · 08-21-2005, 05:55 AM

I'll throw in another voice in support of the idea that an anti-LDS sentiment at the U does exist in some places.

I don't think it's a huge problem, but depending on the department it can be. In my field for example I could expect to find a hefty amount of bias against me at the U, and my accrediting body--liberal as they may be--even noted this when reviewing a certain program at the U. Not to mention someone from a related department at the U is currently pushing hard to pass rules that would effectively remove accreditation from BYU and other religious schools.

Again, I don't know about other areas or other departments. But I find it funny that some Ute fans are so shocked at the idea that claims of an anti-LDS bias at the U come up now and again. Honestly, if I were not LDS and had to live in Utah, combined with the typical tenor of academic institutions these days, I'd probably struggle with my own biases as well.

MikeWaters · 08-21-2005, 02:24 PM

Brian, no, I am talking about Utah residents.

As a non-resident Mormon, I didn't even bother applying (I didn't particularly have an interest, and I ended up going to a much higher ranked school)....

The other part of the equation is that vast majortiy of folks applying for med school (at least in 1999 when I last looked) are male. We are maybe talking a 50:1 ratio. or maybe 25:1.

So a school like Utah, is looking to have a 50:50 sex representation, you as a byu mormon rm white male are competing for a limited number of spots.

I had two non-mormon non-utahn friends end up matching at Utah for residency. I wonder how they've liked it. Maybe I'll email them.

And yes, it wouldn't suprise me if EE is off on his stats.

LA Ute · 08-23-2005, 03:27 AM

I left the U. over 20 years ago but have stayed close. Here are a few thoughts:

1. First of all, it must be recognized that LDS and non-LDS people in Utah do a miserable job of getting along. That sounds critical, but it's not; to my mind, that's just the way it is. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect otherwise. There is just a lot of weirdness, fear, and loathing in Utah, all of it religion-driven. I am a 4th-generation Utahn and love the place, but I do not miss that aspect of living there.

2. I had an Insitute class at the U. from Gene England back in about 1978. He commented then about how he wanted to get on at the U.'s English Department, but they would not hire an LDS prof. So Gene was paying attention to that way back when. My own experience with the English Department (my minor field) was that it never discriminated against me because I was LDS, but it didn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy either. If it's true that they did not hire an active LDS prof for 50 years, that doesn't surprise me. For whatever that's worth.

3. The U. is an honest-to-goodness, highly-developed and well-respected state university, with all the liberal bias you would expect at such a place. (Again, not a criticism; that's just the way 99% of all universities are.) So staunch LDS folks, evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews, and practicing charismatic Catholics, for example, are not going to find it to be a place where their views are embraced.

4. One fear that drives hiring action at the U. is that of being seen as "inbred." I saw this first-hand and still see it. Having too many U. grads on the faculty, or Utah natives on the faculty, looks bad. (At Harvard, apparently having a ton of Harvard grads on the faculty does not produce the same fear. :wink: ) Even BYU worries about this, at least when recruiting professors to the law school there.

5. I'm sure there is some ant-LDS bias at the U. How widespread is it? We'll never know, I guess. There are probably some pockets of pro-LDS bias (my brother in-law is a professor there, and would not have had the connection to the school he did without an LDS affiliation. Maybe it all evens out.

5. Mike: If you got a chance to visit the campus at Utah you would not use the term "podunk" to describe it.

MikeWaters · 08-23-2005, 03:34 AM

well, if it makes you feel better, byu is more podunk. I wish they would actually build a research base and start some good grad programs (that would ideally pay for themselves through federal and other grants).

But oh well, I'm not running the place.

08-23-2005, 03:27 AM	#15
LA Ute Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 118	Anti-LDS Bias at the U. of U. I left the U. over 20 years ago but have stayed close. Here are a few thoughts: 1. First of all, it must be recognized that LDS and non-LDS people in Utah do a miserable job of getting along. That sounds critical, but it's not; to my mind, that's just the way it is. I'm not sure it is realistic to expect otherwise. There is just a lot of weirdness, fear, and loathing in Utah, all of it religion-driven. I am a 4th-generation Utahn and love the place, but I do not miss that aspect of living there. 2. I had an Insitute class at the U. from Gene England back in about 1978. He commented then about how he wanted to get on at the U.'s English Department, but they would not hire an LDS prof. So Gene was paying attention to that way back when. My own experience with the English Department (my minor field) was that it never discriminated against me because I was LDS, but it didn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy either. If it's true that they did not hire an active LDS prof for 50 years, that doesn't surprise me. For whatever that's worth. 3. The U. is an honest-to-goodness, highly-developed and well-respected state university, with all the liberal bias you would expect at such a place. (Again, not a criticism; that's just the way 99% of all universities are.) So staunch LDS folks, evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews, and practicing charismatic Catholics, for example, are not going to find it to be a place where their views are embraced. 4. One fear that drives hiring action at the U. is that of being seen as "inbred." I saw this first-hand and still see it. Having too many U. grads on the faculty, or Utah natives on the faculty, looks bad. (At Harvard, apparently having a ton of Harvard grads on the faculty does not produce the same fear. :wink: ) Even BYU worries about this, at least when recruiting professors to the law school there. 5. I'm sure there is some ant-LDS bias at the U. How widespread is it? We'll never know, I guess. There are probably some pockets of pro-LDS bias (my brother in-law is a professor there, and would not have had the connection to the school he did without an LDS affiliation. Maybe it all evens out. 5. Mike: If you got a chance to visit the campus at Utah you would not use the term "podunk" to describe it. __________________ "Always do right. It will annoy some people and surprise the rest." --Mark Twain

08-21-2005, 05:18 AM	#11
InTheMuss Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 13	Mike, I'm not going to take the time to argue the U of U med school deal but I don't think it holds much water either. I know a few people on the adcom there and they're active LDS (Ingebretsen included... MD. PHD). Some schools factor things in other than GPA and MCAT. The U denies plenty of U kids with high GPA's and MCATs as well. My roommated (3.8 overall, 4.0 science, 33 MCAT) got denied there but went to OHSU. And by the way... The state of Utah did do an investigation into the medical school and their admissions process a couple of years ago. I grew up in Texas as well and the U is a fine academic institution. Your podunk comment reaks of sour grapes. PS: I'm heading to bed so I most likely won't see your response for awhile.

08-21-2005, 05:29 AM	#12
Brian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oak Ridge, TN Posts: 1,308	Mike, I'd be interested in your info. There could be a number of reasons. I believe the med school is required to take a certain number of utahns. Out of state byu grads would be at a disadvantage. (I don't know the in state/out of state numbers at byu). Are they equally qualified? They are probably white males, is there some AA at play? On research universities, top 30 overall and top 25 public certainly doesn't seem podunk to me. Good night, Brian

08-21-2005, 05:55 AM	#13
OhioBlue Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Ames, IA Posts: 469	I'll throw in another voice in support of the idea that an anti-LDS sentiment at the U does exist in some places. I don't think it's a huge problem, but depending on the department it can be. In my field for example I could expect to find a hefty amount of bias against me at the U, and my accrediting body--liberal as they may be--even noted this when reviewing a certain program at the U. Not to mention someone from a related department at the U is currently pushing hard to pass rules that would effectively remove accreditation from BYU and other religious schools. Again, I don't know about other areas or other departments. But I find it funny that some Ute fans are so shocked at the idea that claims of an anti-LDS bias at the U come up now and again. Honestly, if I were not LDS and had to live in Utah, combined with the typical tenor of academic institutions these days, I'd probably struggle with my own biases as well.

08-21-2005, 02:24 PM	#14
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Brian, no, I am talking about Utah residents. As a non-resident Mormon, I didn't even bother applying (I didn't particularly have an interest, and I ended up going to a much higher ranked school).... The other part of the equation is that vast majortiy of folks applying for med school (at least in 1999 when I last looked) are male. We are maybe talking a 50:1 ratio. or maybe 25:1. So a school like Utah, is looking to have a 50:50 sex representation, you as a byu mormon rm white male are competing for a limited number of spots. I had two non-mormon non-utahn friends end up matching at Utah for residency. I wonder how they've liked it. Maybe I'll email them. And yes, it wouldn't suprise me if EE is off on his stats.

08-23-2005, 03:34 AM	#16
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	well, if it makes you feel better, byu is more podunk. I wish they would actually build a research base and start some good grad programs (that would ideally pay for themselves through federal and other grants). But oh well, I'm not running the place.