Interesting blog on Mormon treatment of grace

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Prevenient grace. Is that the same concept of what I have referred to and heard others refer to in more common language as "enabling grace"?

Probably, Jay. When I say prevenient grace I mean something like the following: Prior to any act of human agency, grace which moves the human will to have faith or to be capable of having faith.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Word to the anti-Mormons. If I've never heard the quote, it's not because it's so super secret the Mormons in charge don't want me to hear it, it's because it's not important, non-binding, probably speculation, and probably wrong.

I think we should dub this the Santos Test in all future conversations.

[malapert]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Amen. And using quotes from more than 100 years ago that I've never heard or read in thousands of hours of church worship, study, and proselyting.

Word to the anti-Mormons. If I've never heard the quote, it's not because it's so super secret the Mormons in charge don't want me to hear it, it's because it's not important, non-binding, probably speculation, and probably wrong.

Amen Jeff and Jay!

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Probably, Jay. When I say prevenient grace I mean something like the following: Prior to any act of human agency, grace which moves the human will to have faith or to be capable of having faith.

Also, Jay let me add the following. I think a good example of prevenient grace in the Book of Mormon is 2 Nephi 2:26-27 (Blake Ostler is the first one I am aware of to make the observation):

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Without the atonement or grace of Christ we don't have agency. We don't have the ability or capability to have faith. We can't do good works. We are not free. We are only acted upon. I've never met a Mormon that had a problem with this concept. It is fully accepted as a "stage" in salvation but we just usually make it implicit in our discussion of Salvation.

This notion is also why I think it is inappropriate to call Mormonism "Pelagian" or "Semi-Pelagian" (despite my sympathy). To be sure, this passage points out some overlap but Pelagius didn't believe (as far as I know) that we are "free" (from the effects of the fall) by grace and grace alone.

[aaronshaf]

Like I said, "Even with Mormonism's doctrine of necessary gracious opportunity and necessary gracious assistance, it is still a relentless merit system."

Gracious assistance via prevenient grace doesn't get Mormonism off the hook for being a system that requires one prove their own personal moral worthiness as a prerequisite for receiving eternal life.

Also, notice that one of my quotes was from the very last General Conference.

But hey, quoting Mormon leaders to Mormons can be pretty offensive :-)

[woot]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Like I said, "Even with Mormonism's doctrine of necessary gracious opportunity and necessary gracious assistance, it is still a relentless merit system."

Gracious assistance via prevenient grace doesn't get Mormonism off the hook for being a system that requires one prove their own personal moral worthiness as a prerequisite for receiving eternal life.

Also, notice that one of my quotes was from the very last General Conference.

But hey, quoting Mormon leaders to Mormons can be pretty offensive :-)

Both belief systems are nonsensical, but at least Mormon belief is internally consistent. Yours make sense from the standpoint that if you're just going to make shit up, you might as well make it so you have zero responsibility and go to heaven automatically after arbitrarily being born in the right place at the right time. Good for you, dude.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Like I said, "Even with Mormonism's doctrine of necessary gracious opportunity and necessary gracious assistance, it is still a relentless merit system."

Gracious assistance via prevenient grace doesn't get Mormonism off the hook for being a system that requires one prove their own personal moral worthiness as a prerequisite for receiving eternal life.

Also, notice that one of my quotes was from the very last General Conference.

But hey, quoting Mormon leaders to Mormons can be pretty offensive :-)

You've oversimplified it as usual, but your perspective can be made look silly as well. Jeez, just believe and you're saved. That sounds stupid. Whatever the roles of grace and works in the hereafter, I'm certain God desires people to work and to good things. What actually mechanics gest us there is probably irrelevant. Mormons are industrious. Can you say that of evangelicals? That's not the reputation of evangelicals.

[minn_stat]

From the point of view of the individual, salvation is either due to something they say/think/do, or it is not. If it is not, then, from that individual's view point, it is arbitrary. To the degree that it is due to something within the individual's power is indicative of some degree of salvation by works.

It seems the general evangelical view, at least from the limited non-argumentative discussions I've had with friends/acquaintances who are evangelical, is the latter. This seems to makes God capricious and arbitrary - not a God I'm particularly desirous to worship.

As Woot said, at least mormon cosmology is pretty internally consistent. The evangelical cosmology makes my head swim.