Obama and N. Korea

[MikeWaters]

NY Times reporting that the S. Korean ship was in fact taken out by a N. Korean torpedo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/wo...3korea.html?hp

And how Obama and S. Korea are all pretending it did not happen.

And China continuing to prop up one of the most appalling regimes in the history of the world, as men, women, and children starve.

It's a far cry from Ronald Reagan and "evil empire" and "tear down this wall" isn't it?

It's all real politik, no bright lines for Obama.

Makes me feel nauseated.

[Zulu451]

How do you respond to a country that within the first 15 minutes of all out war, can put over 50,000 high explosive shells into Seoul? N Korea has isolated itself and built up it's military to the point that it would literally take at the very least low yield nuclear weapons to dismantle their military. On the other hand the world economy would not tolerate S Korea getting it's entire industrial sector decimated by that war. We are almost forced to deal with N Korea politically, just because of the success of the South. Interesting debacle. Plus, I hear the winters up there can be really, really miserable and I am not up for any more extended vacations at this time.

[Archaea]

My suggestion:

Negotiate a trade embargo with China, telling them, S. Korea will take the refugees, and having China man its border with the North.

[MikeWaters]

I recognize that there aren't easy solutions in the case of N. Korea and Iran.

But we can still clearly articulate to the world what is right and what is wrong. When we allow evil to occur uncommented on, we become contributors by virtue of our silence.

If our govt. won't say it, then we should.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

When we allow evil to occur uncommented on, we become contributors by virtue of our silence.

That would require an endless stream of commentary, and result in enemies finding victory in simply gaining our attention. Take the so-called war on terror for example: there are more terrorists today than there were in 2001, and how many of them would love to make the American news? The message sent over the past nine years was that the U.S. bitterly killed two innocent Afghan citizens for every innocent 9/11 victim, and 99% of terrorists can successfully evade the U.S. military.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

That would require an endless stream of commentary, and result in enemies finding victory in simply gaining our attention. Take the so-called war on terror for example: there are more terrorists today than there were in 2001, and how many of them would love to make the American news? The message sent over the past nine years was that the U.S. bitterly killed two innocent Afghan citizens for every innocent 9/11 victim, and 99% of terrorists can successfully evade the U.S. military.

America is looking inward and does not know what we are. We are lost, have no compass, and are wandering without a goal.

Do we want to simply follow in the fold of European diplomacy where no solutions are found and everything is negotiated by committee?

Do we stand for commerce, like the British Empire of old, or Bush's "Democracy"?

I know what I'd like to see his achieve, some sort of Reaganesque Realpolitik, but we appear headed toward a DeGaulesque quasi-isolationism, abandonment type of foreign policy.

[MikeWaters]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/wo...6korea.html?hp

Those nuts in N. Korea are crazy enough for war, I think.

Best case scenarios: 1) current leaders only threaten, but don't go to war, or 2) military junta that takes out current leadership.

If N. Korea were to attack S. Korea, is it possible that China would step in to help N. Korea? That's a scenario where the US could quickly be in a war with China.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/wo...6korea.html?hp

Those nuts in N. Korea are crazy enough for war, I think.

Best case scenarios: 1) current leaders only threaten, but don't go to war, or 2) military junta that takes out current leadership.

If N. Korea were to attack S. Korea, is it possible that China would step in to help N. Korea? That's a scenario where the US could quickly be in a war with China.

I'm not saying I understand the dynamics of the China/N. Korea relationship, but with that proviso, I believe N. Korea is nothing but a pain in the ass for China, providing only a bufferzone between it and S. Korea, or the West.

I doubt China wants to risk anything for N. Korea if it can avoid it. It has the delicate balance of making certain more refugees don't overrun its border and looking like a super power. If we can create a win/win situation for China, it would sell out N. Korea in a heartbeat.

N. Korea provides China with no hard currency, only debt.

N. Korea is a PR nightmare.

N. Korea is a dead end.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I'm not saying I understand the dynamics of the China/N. Korea relationship, but with that proviso, I believe N. Korea is nothing but a pain in the ass for China, providing only a bufferzone between it and S. Korea, or the West.

I doubt China wants to risk anything for N. Korea if it can avoid it. It has the delicate balance of making certain more refugees don't overrun its border and looking like a super power. If we can create a win/win situation for China, it would sell out N. Korea in a heartbeat.

N. Korea provides China with no hard currency, only debt.

N. Korea is a PR nightmare.

N. Korea is a dead end.

That's logic talking.

I'm suggesting that people don't always act logically.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

That's logic talking.

I'm suggesting that people don't always act logically.

Is there a scenario where China could feel it had to go to war, only to see it escalate?

Yes. Do I find that likely right now? No.

China will strike if it has to, but I see that issue tied to Taiwan, or to its provinces, not to N. Korea.