Free Expression? Not in Holland.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Tex

What western European nation isn't? Britain's got it. France has got it. Germany. Spain. This culture clash is a huge elephant over there.

Correct. But because the Netherlands is the most ardent adherent to this inclusive, mutual respect philosophy, the situation is particularly difficult there.

Banning racist, misogynistic Snow White stories is a good start, however.

Don't go there, Tex. This is not relevant to the topic at hand. Further, even in germane context, I can't imagine that even you would try to deny the sexist and, yes, misogynistic portrayal of women by the Grimm brothers.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by The Borg

Well said BG.

In reading your reply...I couldn't help but think of the early days of the founding of the Church, and their mass influx to Missouri. Same kind of deal...to the existing people living there. The early Saints became a real threat to the settlers of Missouri.

So, it is interesting to see what is happening there....it is a foreshadowing of what is to come in other countries, in my opinion.

Do you stand by your principles and watch your country go down all in the name of ensuring certain freedoms, even if those very freedoms you're protecting could produce the demise of your very country. Or, do you somehow try and preserve your founding ideals that made your country.

Wow....scary to think about.

I don't believe you need to force a dichotomy such as that, but it would require a more sophisticated approach than is usually employed.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I don't believe you need to force a dichotomy such as that, but it would require a more sophisticated approach than is usually employed.

That's what Obama was suggesting. That we've been living a false dichotomy for seven years now. The thing of it is, dichotomies are easy. If you reject the dichotomy, you have to use negotiate a more complex yet still realistic and effective solution. That must seem awfully daunting in a situation like what you see in The Netherlands.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Correct. But because the Netherlands is the most ardent adherent to this inclusive, mutual respect philosophy, the situation is particularly difficult there.

Don't go there, Tex. This is not relevant to the topic at hand. Further, even in germane context, I can't imagine that even you would try to deny the sexist and, yes, misogynistic portrayal of women by the Grimm brothers.

The politics of the Netherlands are particularly complex, because of the huge influx of nonindigenous peoples.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Right, but freedom of speech is constitutionally protected in the Netherlands, too. This is a matter of interpretation.

I don't think their equivalent of the first amendment starts off by saying, "Congress shall make no law..." We take it to the extreme as far as the rest of the world goes, and it's reflected in the way the amendment was written.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BlueK

I don't think their equivalent of the first amendment starts off by saying, "Congress shall make no law..." We take it to the extreme as far as the rest of the world goes, and it's reflected in the way the amendment was written.

here is the Dutch Constitution on the Expression. You may be overstating your case:

Article 7 [Expression]

(1) No one shall require prior permission to publish thoughts or opinions through the press, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law.
(2) Rules concerning radio and television shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. There shall be no prior supervision of the content of a radio or television broadcast.
(3) No one shall be required to submit thoughts or opinions for prior approval in order to disseminate them by means other than those mentioned in the preceding paragraphs, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law. The holding of performances open to persons younger than sixteen years of age may be regulated by Act of Parliament in order to protect good morals.
(4) The preceding paragraphs do not apply to commercial advertising.

[Archaea]

The German GrundGesetz is stronger:

Art 5

(1) 1Jeder hat das Recht, seine Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild frei zu äußern und zu verbreiten und sich aus allgemein zugänglichen Quellen ungehindert zu unterrichten. 2Die Pressefreiheit und die Freiheit der Berichterstattung durch Rundfunk und Film werden gewährleistet. 3Eine Zensur findet nicht statt.
(2) Diese Rechte finden ihre Schranken in den Vorschriften der allgemeinen Gesetze, den gesetzlichen Bestimmungen zum Schutze der Jugend und in dem Recht der persönlichen Ehre.
(3) 1Kunst und Wissenschaft, Forschung und Lehre sind frei. 2Die Freiheit der Lehre entbindet nicht von der Treue zur Verfassung.

http://bundesrecht.juris.de/gg/art_5.html

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Archaea

here is the Dutch Constitution on the Expression. You may be overstating your case:

check out this article though.

http://snouck.blogspot.com/2006/01/f...therlands.html

In other words, when your speech discriminates you can be punsished.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BlueK

check out this article though.

http://snouck.blogspot.com/2006/01/f...therlands.html

If you wish to argue that the application of the lofty declarations is not always as perfect as we might desire, then I'm certain that is true.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Archaea

If you wish to argue that the application of the lofty declarations is not always as perfect as we might desire, then I'm certain that is true.

That's correct. But the language our First Amendment is written in makes it harder to introduce loopholes to restrict the rights mentioned in it. It's harder to argue with the words "no law."

There is also this in the Dutch Constitution. I'm not sure how paragraph 2 can be interpreted there, but it seems to indicate the possibility of restricting speech for some reasons.

Article 61. Everyone shall have the right to profess freely his religion or belief,either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to hisresponsibility under the law.
2. Rules concerning the exercise of this right other than in buildings andenclosed places may be laid down by Act of Parliament for the protectionof health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders