Economic liberals state your case for Obama:

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

The entire Iraq was has been a huge waste of time (and money). What difference does a couple more years make?

If we are not largely pulled out of Iraq in the next few years, that would be disappointing. Military troops engaged in active combat for a longer period of time than any of our previous involvements....except for Vietnam, of course...which irony does not escape me.


Our presence there for the next 20 years and Colin Powell saying we own Iraq now is odd, given that we do not engage in nation building....

Who says we do not engage in nation building? That's exactly what we are doing in Iraq and knew we would do from the beginning, hence Powell's warning. It's our largest diplomatic mission overseas. What are they doing there? As you can see, it's a messy endeavor and we will think long and hard about doing it again.

Obviously Iraq was not a waste of time and money. We removed a destablizing force in the region, one that was hostile to our interests and had attacked them in the past, as well as one that had been a state sponsor of terrorism. One may argue that the price was too high, or that the mission was bungled, but it certainly was not a waste.

Our role in Iraq over the years will be to stabilize the situation in country as well as to provide a presence in a region important to our interests. Our role in combat will diminish over time as Iraqi forces take more responsibility for internal security. We will provide external security.

We are making major capital investments in Iraq, both military and diplomatic. No president is going to turn tail on that. We are there for the long haul. We own that country and bear the responsibility of facilitating a stable environment there. At least Hillary has been honest on that one. Obama and Edwards are dishonest in their pandering to the anti-war wing of the party. There, you have one reason not to vote for Obama.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Who says we do not engage in nation building?

"I don't think our troops should be used for what's called nation-building."--W

One from when he was governor: "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not."

In a debate against gore: "Let me tell you what else I'm worried about: I'm worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place."

“We are not in Iraq to engage in nation-building — our mission is to help Iraqis so that they can build their own nation.” — Donald H. Rumsfeld, Washington Post, September 25 2003.

I could copy more but it gets boring.

Here's a toast to the continued fighting of "terror" and the building up a great nation in a region where we are not wanted, where we are viewed as the enemy, and where everyone will continue to hate us until we stop letting Israel hide behind our skirt. Sounds like it will be a smashing success.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

"I don't think our troops should be used for what's called nation-building."--W

One from when he was governor: "I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not."

In a debate against gore: "Let me tell you what else I'm worried about: I'm worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place."

“We are not in Iraq to engage in nation-building — our mission is to help Iraqis so that they can build their own nation.” — Donald H. Rumsfeld, Washington Post, September 25 2003.

I could copy more but it gets boring.

Here's a toast to the continued fighting of "terror" and the building up a great nation in a region where we are not wanted, where we are viewed as the enemy, and where everyone will continue to hate us until we stop letting Israel hide behind our skirt. Sounds like it will be a smashing success.

Well, obviously things have changed. That these things were said doesn't change the situation on the ground. We are there for the long haul, and rightfully so.

You want to see real venom and America hate? Turn tail and leave the place to the last man standing. I'm sure even Obama understands this, he's just schleping for votes.

I'm bothered that so much of the "let's get out of Iraq" crowd wants to focus on the mistakes of the past versus what needs to be done in the future. How can anyone take that seriously?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Well, obviously things have changed. That these things were said doesn't change the situation on the ground. We are there for the long haul, and rightfully so.

You want to see real venom and America hate? Turn tail and leave the place to the last man standing. I'm sure even Obama understands this, he's just schleping for votes.

I'm bothered that so much of the "let's get out of Iraq" crowd wants to focus on the mistakes of the past versus what needs to be done in the future. How can anyone take that seriously?

If we leave Iraq, the Middle East will hate us just as much as before. Back in the 70s, the Ayatollah was teaching young impressionable children that the US is the Devil and the Great Satan. Today's rhetoric is nothing new.

Arabs are not stupid. They know that fundamentalism is the only leverage they have over us, so they will exploit it. If the Arab world were so interested in progress, the masses would have stamped out extremism a long time ago and pushed for social reform from within. That push is largely missing in the Middle East because corrupt political and religious leaders prefer to keep the masses uneducated and reliant on "spiritual" guidance to form their daily opinions, all while condemning education, dialogue, and tolerance. (as an interesting commentary on this phenomenon, see the lyrics to the Clash's Rock the Casbah..penned over 25 years and still just as accurate today as it was then)

Our presence in Iraq does nothing to change those opinions. If we help Iraq hold elections, but are still in bed with Israel afterwards, you think Arabs in the Middle East will embrace or tolerate us at a greater level simply because we helped Iraq? Many Arab countries cannot even stand Iraq (admittedly largely due to Saddam).

If you want to focus on what needs to be done in the future, no problem...Get out of Iraq. If it destabilizes, how will it be any different than it was prior to our invasion, when Saddam was butchering thousands? The real risk is the nation-building aspect...if we leave too soon, we lose a pawn in the Middle East. Simple as that. It is about our interests, not Iraq's. Let's not pretend we are in Iraq to primarily help them. And, since like you said, our presence there is about nation building, then let's just give up this time and attack a different part of the world where we have a better understanding of the social and political climate.

Even Bobby Fischer had to sacrifice a pawn every now and then. There is no shame in it.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I would like add my 2 cents to this discussion, but I don't know who you define as rich. Income level please.

2 cents to add to a discussion = NOT rich

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

We own that country

"We OWN that country" ???

What exactly is this supposed to mean ?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

"We OWN that country" ???

What exactly is this supposed to mean ?

It's a joke related to some comics with which you'd be unfamiliar.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It's a joke related to some comics with which you'd be unfamiliar.

well I would hope ,it wasnot . so we could welcome "the new home owner" as the neighbor next door!

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Arabs are not stupid. They know that fundamentalism is the only leverage they have over us, so they will exploit it. If the Arab world were so interested in progress, the masses would have stamped out extremism a long time ago and pushed for social reform from within. That push is largely missing in the Middle East because corrupt political and religious leaders prefer to keep the masses uneducated and reliant on "spiritual" guidance to form their daily opinions, all while condemning education, dialogue, and tolerance. (as an interesting commentary on this phenomenon, see the lyrics to the Clash's Rock the Casbah..penned over 25 years and still just as accurate today as it was then)

But i would call people who are not educating themselves under religious leadears's influence as "Stupid".

However its very difficult to blame religious leaders for people's stupidity ..since true islamic leaders are supposed to preach and lead people through Quran ..a book which perpeutally urges people "to read ,learn,search and contemplate" in all areas ,in every single page.

taking a tour in any islamic field would help you realise that ,in Islam there is no place for sweeping things under carpet unless you are preferably choose to educate yourself via inaccurate sources ..which i beleive is still not all bad ,because it would make you leave these sort of comments here and there to the point of arousing muslims readers to defend thier religion and share thier ideas with you.

poor education and culture are what, islam has always been agonized over through the history.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

"We OWN that country" ???

What exactly is this supposed to mean ?

It means we have a responsibility to Iraq after having come in and removed the primary center of power. It means we have a reasponsibility to address the needs of Iraq (power, food, education, health care, security, etc.) after having destroyed much of it in throwing out Saddam. It means we have a responsibility to provide some guidance and education on establishing a civil political system that can be sustained over time. It means not leaving Iraq at the mercies of it's neighbors, providing hope for a viable Iraq that can be a stabilizing force in the region.

It means America has a responsibility to Iraq to not run away when things get dicey.