"The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child"

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

but not an adult?

Theoretically a 100 pound woman can defend herself against a 250 pound guy with a knife and/or gun.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Tex, where do you draw the line? Do we just use the "stomach factor" to determine which crimes are worthy of capital punishment and the ones that really make you sick get the heave-ho?

I think life without parole would be appropriate here.

I'm not ever comfortable drawing the line determining when someone should live or die--even in homicide cases (which also have varying degrees of severity). This is why I'm against the death penalty--it's the law of Moses, institutionalized. It's wrong, and it's a travesty that we still perform executions in this country.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

It depends on what purpose you believe the death penalty serves. If you believe the death penalty is a punishment enacted out of vengeance by a society so repulsed by an offender that it can only be satisfied by watching the offender die, then maybe it is appropriate. That seems like a very bad basis for the death penalty, though.

If you view it as a deterrent for crime, then is there any evidence that sex offenders are deterred by the death penalty? I doubt it. In fact, given the almost universal presence of mental addiction of sex offenders to sex (particularly pedophilia), I would bet that is one of the groups of criminals least likely to be influenced by the possibility of the death penalty.

So what logical reason is there to make it available for this kind of crime? Nobody disputes the vulgar, heinous, disgusting and evil nature of sex crimes, particularly where a child is involved. I do think we may be succumbing to a dark inner desire to watch bad people suffer and die (which itself is perverse) when we ask for sex offenders to be executed (and that dark inner desire is frequently expressed in the form of "I don't even care how he is killed- make it painful). It seems to me that we can and ought to be better than that.

A rare occasion where I completely agree with Cali. The death penalty satisfies our basest impulses.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

I have to agree with Tex here. If you had ever seen what happens to a young girl/boy when they are raped by an adult you would too.

I have seen several cases and I can tell you that it is impossible for an adult to penetrate a young child without severe damage taking place. Almost without exception the girls are scarred for life. They will never have kids and they have vaginal/uteral problems the rest of the way. Many times the assault results in death.

Everything's all better by watching a man (a child of God, remember) slowly, painfully die. It all makes sense now.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

You're willing to claim that you're right and I'm wrong. That isn't being willing to talk about it.

I stated my opinion and you didn't like it. Had you just commented that you disagree with my opinion, the discussion would have been over, but you decided to go a step further and say that people who are for the death penalty for a child rapist are all about vengeance. You decided to make it an "I'm right and you're wrong" discussion.

I said that YOU were all about vengeance, not that everyone who supports the death penalty for rape is about vengeance, and I think I gave a pretty compelling piece of evidence in support of my statement (which was your statement).

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Theoretically a 100 pound woman can defend herself against a 250 pound guy with a knife and/or gun.

well your theory didn't prevent how many rapes last year?

A member of my ward growing up, he went to prison for molesting one of his kids. Boy was his family screwed up. as in the most screwed up family I have encountered in the church.

Molestation and rape are so common in the US as to be banal.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Depends on the crime. In this particular situation, my opinion is the most just punishment is forfeiture of life. The legislatures of 6 states agree, which means the legislatures of 44 don't (or haven't taken up the issue).

IOW, it's a judgment call. Which is why the call should be left up to the people and not 5 justices.

I am still waiting for some explanation as to this statement, Tex. The fact that 6 states decide to do something makes it a "judgment call" that the Supreme Court can't overturn? What a bizarre conclusion you have reached. What do you think the Court should review in determining if a punishment is "unusual?" Should it not consider that 44 states don't see fit to extend the death penalty to rape?

And you still haven't said if you are denying that you said you would prefer a conservative result to a strict constructionist result. Just print your answer here and we can let people judge of their own accord without your editorializing.

I don't know why I keep asking you questions. It is like asking Richard Simmons to grab something off of the top shelf. Maybe you need the item off of the top shelf, but it only takes a fraction of a second to realize the horrible consequences of the request.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The problem with this discussion IMO is that the 8th Amendment is maybe the worst area you could pick to have an originalist vs. activist debate over. ...

I actually think the Supremes got this one right, but if they didn't I don't think the best attack is on originalist grounds.

Who is making an originalist argument, Dan? I haven't read Alito's opinion in full, but the scan I did of it did not seem to me an originalist argument.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Would executing rapists encourage rapists not to rape at all?

It doesn't appear to discourage murderers from murdering anyone, so why do you think rapists would be swayed? Evidence shows their crime is frequently committed due to a severe mental addiction/disease/disorder. I think they are far LESS likely to be discouraged by the death penalty than almost any other group of criminals.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I am still waiting for some explanation as to this statement, Tex. The fact that 6 states decide to do something makes it a "judgment call" that the Supreme Court can't overturn? What a bizarre conclusion you have reached. What do you think the Court should review in determining if a punishment is "unusual?" Should it not consider that 44 states don't see fit to extend the death penalty to rape?

I don't really care if its 6-44, 44-6, or 25-25. I only pointed out the 6 states to illustrate that there is a divided view on this issue, and it's not up to Anthony Kennedy to determine what "national consensus" is.

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And you still haven't said if you are denying that you said you would prefer a conservative result to a strict constructionist result. Just print your answer here and we can let people judge of their own accord without your editorializing.

Scalia has said multiple times that occasionally his jurisprudence forces him to a decision that he personally disagrees with. I find that to be an honest and correct approach.

There is nothing dishonest about taking personal moral pleasure in a decision that I also find to be legally sound.

PS. Don't hijack my thread on this unrelated issue. You want to talk about this, go start your own.