It amazes me at how misunderstood

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Huge resurgence.

Of course there's always some confusion over what we mean by evangelicals.

I'm speaking of conservative fundamentalist Christianity, represented by many Baptist churches and much of the non-denominational movement as well.

Most of the mega-churches are based on strict Calvinist doctrine, but not all of the members are educated enough to realize it. Obviously, if you put it to them in the words I used above, most of them will want to say, "I don't believe that." They don't realize the implications of a doctrine of pre-determination.

if you take everything in the Bible literally it's hard to get past that doctrine. If you say we're saved by grace alone but you can do something to access that grace (like having faith, asking for it, etc.) then that's really not much different than the LDS view on it. The disagreement then is only on what has to be done to access that grace.

[BYU71]

Application of the rules, commandments, etc. are what bother me about religion getting into the government.

I for a long time thought I was part of the religious right.

I don't believe in abortion. I believe in school prayer. I believe in God being on the coin. All those things. Then I started to see where if some group got too much power they may not like how I believe in some things and might think it would be within their "righteous" perogative to ban me from believing as I please. I started backing away from the religious right rapidly.

I see BYU and quite frankly CB in the same light.

I find myself agreeing with much, as I do with the Eagle Forum in Utah County. I don't agree with their zealous effort in thinking everyone else should agree. I don't know if this makes sense, but I believe in principles (even something as serious and abhorent as abortion) but I still believe there is room for others to not believe in those principles.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Archaea

My point is that Christians are capable of the same atrocities that a significant minority of Muslims glory in.

Historically, we saw Catholics killing natives who did not convert.

At the employment level in evangelical colleges, we've had testimony here of discrimination.

You have evangelicals willing to blow themselves up at abortion clinics. If you had a charismatic evangelical leader rant and rave about Mormons, encouraging them a la fatwa to kill Mormons, you don't think there wouldn't be bombings, kidnappings and executions?

I do. Evangelical fervor engages emotive power and often disengages the rule of reason.

It has already happened. Isn't that why the headquarters of the church today is in Utah and not Missouri? Granted, not all that opposition was just religious, but religious fervor was most certainly an element in it.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by BYU71

My gosh we even have people who claim if you can't get into BYU and abide by the honor code, you are essentially in hell.

hyperbole?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by BlueK

hyperbole?

'

Not hyperbole if you consider anything other than the Celestial Kingdom hell.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BYU71

'

Not hyperbole if you consider anything other than the Celestial Kingdom hell.

I don't.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Fred Phelps' wild rantings sound like crude Calvinism.

I'm not familiar with Fred Phelps.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by BlueK

I'm not familiar with Fred Phelps.

He's the pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka. Their group routinely protests at funerals chanting that "God Hates Fags." They are sick folk.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

Remember the school prayer case in Texas several years ago. Guess who the plaintiffs were? Unidentified of course, but one family was Catholic and the other LDS.

To my everlasting shame as a Texan and as a Mormon.

Originally Posted by BYU71

Perhaps I am just naive or out of it. I just don't see how that is different from us. Family members are excluded from Temple Weddings. Basically it comes down to, you aren't worthy to be with us. Sure we don't call it hell, but what do you think the two lower degrees are.

Non-members are not excluded from the temple because they are unworthy.

I'm also pretty sure there's no theological precedent in Mormonism for calling the two lesser degrees of glory, hell. In fact, I think there's ample evidence that their very existence is a symbol of God's mercy ... that is, the vast majority of his intelligent creations will inherit some level of glory, if not the greatest.

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Tell me about it. But we get nervous if you try to say we're the ones going to hell. We just won't stand for it.

wait, you guys don't do hell, do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ISNoNuIX0Y