Alternate Voices: The Calling and its Implications

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I would object to a spritual witness being equated to human emotion. Sometimes, people mistake emotion as a spritual witness, but I believe that is because they haven't had enough spiritual witnesses over time to be able to know the difference.

Often, a spiritual witness can lead to a display of emotion, but the river doesn't flow in the other direction.

It's a close cousin because it's feeling based. It's not intellect, but it's related and it's very sensitive, so I relate it more to emotion than to intellect. It's a river in-between.

I relate a story. My roommate was a faithful member who served his mission in Quito, Ecuador. His parents came to pick him up. In the testimony in Spanish, a man got up "bore" a powerful testimony which his parents did not understand but which both told my roommate "Mike" that they could feel the Spirit and had a spiritual witness. Mike informed them, "Well I don't know what you're receiving a witness of, because that guy just gave testimony of complete heresy and the bishop will have to have a talk with him."

The point? Our witnesses are extremely fine lines, which I believe we often misinterpret or don't understand. They are feelings for a loss of description.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by tooblue

I'd love to be able to say I don't need to understand everything -but that would be disingenuous. Rather, I have great faith in the idea that in time I WILL understand everything ... I am willing to be patient, and attempts to develop such willingness is very comforting.

I have a similar attitude. I would LOVE to know and understand everything. However, I realize there is a time and a season for all things and that line upon line, precept upon precept has to come into play as well.

That doesn't deny the propriety of trying to seek out knowledge when and where you can, but a search for spiritual knowledge should not be undertaken until first evaluating where that search might take you (i.e. what kind of material you have to examine and understanding who was behind it), how important is it relative to the core principles and values of the Gospel as they relate to what I need to do to live my life in such a way that I can gain exaltation.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by tooblue

In the world at large they are empowered with the authority to ostricise, discipline and even oppress. They pocess exceptional power!

Only in academia, otherwise they are by and large ignored.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I have a similar attitude. I would LOVE to know and understand everything. However, I realize there is a time and a season for all things and that line upon line, precept upon precept has to come into play as well.

That doesn't deny the propriety of trying to seek out knowledge when and where you can, but a search for spiritual knowledge should not be undertaken until first evaluating where that search might take you (i.e. what kind of material you have to examine and understanding who was behind it), how important is it relative to the core principles and values of the Gospel as they relate to what I need to do to live my life in such a way that I can gain exaltation.

I guess I am more selfish. If I want to know something, then I try to find out and I don't worry what I might have to examine or whether it's relevant or marketable.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Dan have you noticed that the persecution and victim complex on this particular site amongst the LDS and those who've left the church comes from the intellectuals and "truth seekers"? If not, then you haven't been paying attention. They constantly act like victims of repression.

As I read this thread, the biggest victim/whiner I am able to identify is you. While I would agree that there is some victimhood from those around here who have made a break with the church, there are many more who are fully committed but nevertheless are interested in information and truth not avaliable for whatever reason through official channels.

If there is anything virtuous,ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I know that subtleties aren't your forte, but there is an enormous distinction here that you continue not to grasp.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by tooblue

A prophets desire is to teach and encourage individuals to seek out higher authority for confirmation of thoughts, feelings and ideas. Such confirmation is the most effective innoculation.

What do each of us value -authority or freedom?

Intending no disrespect, I think this is where the analogy falls down. I don't think we are really arguing about freedom, I think we are discussing what all the innoculation should entail.

If you are saying that the brethren have already determined what it should entail and we know what it is because that is what is taught, then I agree. But I would also suggest, and the history of our church confirms this, that this concept is a moving target.

I think others have said before that in the internet age it may make sense to give members the answers to some of these apparent (though not actual) discrepancies in a setting of faith rather than leave them to struggle with them without any guidance. We do this already in some areas. We talk about the reasons that polygamy was once here and now is gone, for example. The manuals contain instruction on this.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

As I read this thread, the biggest victim/whiner I am able to identify is you. While I would agree that there is some victimhood from those around here who have made a break with the church, there are many more who are fully committed but nevertheless are interested in information and truth not avaliable for whatever reason through official channels.

If there is anything virtuous,ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I know that subtleties aren't your forte, but there is an enormous distinction here that you continue not to grasp.

I simply point out the obvious B.S. in a manner that makes guys like you mad.

You'll get over it, but maybe not.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by tooblue

How can an innate understanding of human nature be an intellectual dodge? My assumption is born of experience and evidence.

I didn't mean that as an attack, I just know that from my own experience it is easy for me to dismiss someone as "one of those" on many different topics and that colors my thinking about what is said. Since it is impossible to know what really motivates a person in their heart, it has to be supposition on your part even if it is well informed supposition. If what said is not applicable to you, then disregard it.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I simply point out the obvious B.S. in a manner that makes guys like you mad.

You'll get over it, but maybe not.

Rocky you are no more capable of making me mad than my two month old. You are like a child in your thinking and it is so conclusively established in my mind that there are things you just don't grasp that what you think is BS it pretty trivial in my mind. I would soften it up for you more if you weren't so strident and insulting to all those you disagree with.

There is a lot you could learn around here if you would listen. Though I have debated them in the past, I have learned interesting things from tooblue, All-American and Cali Coug for example, even though I continue not to see eye to eye with any of them. So far you seem impervious to this for the most part and that is what continues to limit your ability to understand what is being said.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Rocky you are no more capable of making me mad than my two month old. You are like a child in your thinking and it is so conclusively established in my mind that there are things you just don't grasp that what you think is BS it pretty trivial in my mind. I would softeing it up for you more if you weren't so strident and insulting to all those you disagree with.

There is a lot you could learn around here if you would listen. Though I have debated them in the past, I have learned interesting things from tooblue, All-American and Cali Coug for example, even though I continue not to see eye to eye with any of them. So far you seem impervious to this for the most part and that is what continues to limit your ability to understand what is being said.

Everytime you exude arrogance and condescenion I will throw it back in your face.

You'd think for as smart as you'd like to think you are that you wouldn't be eating out of my hand so easily.