Critiques of Church leadership

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Robin

Hey now, I'm a bit out of the loop. Name a Mormon intellectual, and I'll check it out. I have known plenty of intellectual Mormons, but I don't think I have ever met a Mormon intellectual. Help me out here. I'm willing to learn.

Archaea, MikeWaters, Homeboy, My Dad, Mitt Romney, Jon Huntsman, and thousands and thousands of others I've not met.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Archaea, MikeWaters, Homeboy, My Dad, Mitt Romney, Jon Huntsman, and thousands and thousands of others I've not met.

Interesting picks. I guess I need a def. of 'intellectual,' and then a def. of 'Mormon intellectual.'

And realize, I'm talking about 'Mormon intellectuals,' ie. people's who are recognized for their intellectual work in the field of 'Mormonism.' I am not talking about 'intellectual Mormons,' who are people who are recognized for their intellectual work in any particular field, and they also happen to be Mormon.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Robin

Interesting picks. I guess I need a def. of 'intellectual,' and then a def. of 'Mormon intellectual.'

And realize, I'm talking about 'Mormon intellectuals,' ie. people's who are recognized for their intellectual work in the field of 'Mormonism.' I am not talking about 'intellectual Mormons,' who are people who are recognized for their intellectual work in any particular field, and they also happen to be Mormon.

Maxwell, Eyring, Holland, Ballard, Hafen, Stephen Robinson, Bob Millet, Wayne Brickey.

Intellectuals who will be remembered for their intellectual work in the field of Mormonism.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Maxwell, Eyring, Holland, Ballard, Hafen, Stephen Robinson, Bob Millet, Wayne Brickey.

Intellectuals who will be remembered for their intellectual work in the field of Mormonism.

Nibley, Sorenson, Welch, both McKonkies.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Maxwell, Eyring, Holland, Ballard, Hafen, Stephen Robinson, Bob Millet, Wayne Brickey.

Intellectuals who will be remembered for their intellectual work in the field of Mormonism.

You know, I am going to grant you this. From the beginning, I recognized that there are 'Mormon Intellectuals' in the Arts and Letters department. Now I am going to acknowledge proselytizing as a unique form of arts and letters. These people you list are poets who write the stuff that inspires faith. In the spirit of Johnathan Edwards, these people too are 'intellectuals.'

I guess my hangup had to do with Archaea's original question. It seemed like he was talking about a different kind of intellectual project other than 'inspiring faith.'

If you are talking about 'intellectualism' of a different sort (something other than poetry) then please define it.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by All-American

Nibley, Sorenson, Welch, both McKonkies.

Yeah, everyone could add a few more. I really don't get the point here. Seems a little silly to me.

What do you want to list?

Mormon intellectuals expanding the ideas of the Mormon religion...take my list and All-Americans and everyone would have a few more to add.

Do you want Mormon intellectuals exploring Mormon/BofM/Bible history with the purpose of defending the faith? Throw in all the FARMS and other scholars.

Do you want Mormon intellectuals exploring Mormon/BofM/Bible history with the purpose of tearing down the faith or rocking the boat? Throw in your Sunstone publishers and controversial BYU prof's.

Do you want anti-Mormon pseudo intellectuals trying to attack Mormons? Seattle Ute, Robin, and thousand others.

Do you want Mormons who are intellectuals in their field? We've got hundreds--go to the academia journals of each field.

This is the dumbest thread yet.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yeah, everyone could add a few more. I really don't get the point here. Seems a little silly to me.

What do you want to list?

Mormon intellectuals expanding the ideas of the Mormon religion...take my list and All-Americans and everyone would have a few more to add.

Do you want Mormon intellectuals exploring Mormon/BofM/Bible history with the purpose of defending the faith? Throw in all the FARMS and other scholars.

Do you want Mormon intellectuals exploring Mormon/BofM/Bible history with the purpose of tearing down the faith or rocking the boat? Throw in your Sunstone publishers and controversial BYU prof's.

Do you want anti-Mormon pseudo intellectuals trying to attack Mormons? Seattle Ute, Robin, and thousand others.

Do you want Mormons who are intellectuals in their field? We've got hundreds--go to the academia journals of each field.

This is the dumbest thread yet.

I guess it comes down to what it means to do 'intellectual work.' Like I said, I grant you the poets, the painters, the musicians, and the preachers. Art is a form of intellectual work. And I will grant you the critics. Criticism is a form of intellectual work. But Archaea seemed to be asking about something different. You aren't going to find a Thomas Aquinas or a Martin Luther in the LDS tradition. That kind of invention is reserved for the highest echelons of the church leadership. It seemed like that was the kind of 'intellectual work' that Archaea was hinting at. I would also add history to the mix of positive intellectual efforts outside of arts. Maybe Bushman meets Archaea's criteria for positive Mormon intellectual work.

As for your FARMS people, I guess it would depend on the meaning of 'intellectual work,' but they don't hold much credibility outside of a very very small circle.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Robin

I guess it comes down to what it means to do 'intellectual work.' Like I said, I grant you the poets, the painters, the musicians, and the preachers. Art is a form of intellectual work. And I will grant you the critics. Criticism is a form of intellectual work. But Archaea seemed to be asking about something different. You aren't going to find a Thomas Aquinas or a Martin Luther in the LDS tradition. That kind of invention is reserved for the highest echelons of the church leadership. It seemed like that was the kind of 'intellectual work' that Archaea was hinting at. I would also add history to the mix of positive intellectual efforts outside of arts and letters. Maybe Bushman meets Archaea's criteria for positive Mormon intellectual work.

As for your FARMS people, I guess it would depend on the meaning of 'intellectual work,' but they don't hold much credibility outside of a very very small circle.

How much credibility could they possibly hold so long as they maintain that a 14 year old saw Jesus?

What exactly is the definition of an "intellectual" that you're looking for? You cited Martin Luther as an intellectual-- does a man have to leave the church in order to qualify as an "intellectual"?

If they are NOT operating under the premise that the church is true, but nevertheless produce studies favorable to the church, they are merely apologists. If they ARE operating under the premise that the church is true, then they are either artists or they have no credibility. If, however, their studies hint that the church may not be true, THEN they are intellectuals?

I suspect we are all letting fuzzy definitions be filled in by our bias, Mormons not excluded. Let's try to pin down exactly what is being referred to instead of trying to decide who's on what side of an undrawn line.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by All-American

I suspect we are all letting fuzzy definitions be filled in by our bias, Mormons not excluded. Let's try to pin down exactly what is being referred to instead of trying to decide who's on what side of an undrawn line.

I hear you. I was mostly responding to Archea's question. If all of the people we have mentioned so far are 'obviously' intellectuals, then what the heck was Archaea talking about? He raised the question. I think he should say what he means, and then we could answer the question on his terms.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Robin

I guess it comes down to what it means to do 'intellectual work.' Like I said, I grant you the poets, the painters, the musicians, and the preachers. Art is a form of intellectual work. And I will grant you the critics. Criticism is a form of intellectual work. But Archaea seemed to be asking about something different. You aren't going to find a Thomas Aquinas or a Martin Luther in the LDS tradition. That kind of invention is reserved for the highest echelons of the church leadership. It seemed like that was the kind of 'intellectual work' that Archaea was hinting at. I would also add history to the mix of positive intellectual efforts outside of arts. Maybe Bushman meets Archaea's criteria for positive Mormon intellectual work.

As for your FARMS people, I guess it would depend on the meaning of 'intellectual work,' but they don't hold much credibility outside of a very very small circle.

I call bull crap on your slam on FARMS. Religious based academia ought to be evaluated against its other religious-based-academia peers. Of course your atheist scientists and researchers will turn their nose at them AND any other religion apologizing scholars.

FARMS and other LDS academics are doing more in their arena than their peers in other religions. I recently read a Christian scholar critiquing a FARMS publication on Central America anthropology and said he didn't agree but said that LDS scholars are kicking Christian scholars butts when it comes to research. Wish I could remember where I found it to give the link.

LDS scholars are also some of the guys leading the whole Dead Sea scrolls research.