What is truth?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by All-American

Why's that? What makes this a topic over which no edifying discussion can be had?

I didn't say it couldn't. I just expect this one to rush to 100 posts rather quickly.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

Fair enough. Let us know mutually acknowledge our inability to know the minds and speak in behalf of the myriads of saints who get up every fast and testimony meeting and say "I know this church is true", and proceed to do so anyway. What do you think they are saying when they get up and say "I know the church is true"? Does it mean the same thing to them as it does to you, as you said in your previous post?

Honest question. Maybe it does. But I suspect that there's more to it than that.

Do I really care if their definition is the same as mine or how all-encompassing a statement that really is to them? Absolutely not.

Can I learn from and benefit spiritually from hearing how the Gospel has helped them in their lives? Absolutely.

[TheSizzle36]

Oh say, what is truth? 'Tis the fairest gem
That the riches of worlds can produce,
And priceless the value of truth will be when
The proud monarch's costliest diadem
Is counted but dross and refuse.

Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire;
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies.
'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.

The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp
When with winds of stern justice he copes,
But the pillar of truth will endure to the last,
And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast,
And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.

Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first,
For the limits of time it steps o'er.
Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst,
Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged, evermore.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Oh say, what is truth? 'Tis the fairest gem
That the riches of worlds can produce,
And priceless the value of truth will be when
The proud monarch's costliest diadem
Is counted but dross and refuse.

Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire;
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies.
'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.

The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp
When with winds of stern justice he copes,
But the pillar of truth will endure to the last,
And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast,
And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.

Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first,
For the limits of time it steps o'er.
Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst,
Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged, evermore.

That was written by my great-great-grandfather.

[TheSizzle36]

Originally Posted by MudphudCoug

That was written by my great-great-grandfather.

Hopefully your posting of this fact doesn't incite the rage that I received over my grandfathers arrangement of "If You Could Hie To Kolob" from a recent session of GC.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Hopefully your posting of this fact doesn't incite the rage that I received over my grandfathers arrangement of "If You Could Hie To Kolob" from a recent session of GC.

I actually don't know for sure if he was really my great-great-grandfather, but that's what my family tree says. They say that 1/10 children in America today was fathered by someone other than who they thought was their father. If the same number held true in the 19th century, there is a ~40% chance he is NOT my great-great-grandfather.

Also, I've heard that Mormon genealogists tend to fill in blanks on their own (by the spirit).

[CardiacCoug]

I haven't read much on this board -- I have a feeling this has probably been re-hashed dozens of times. However, when a member says "I know the Church is true" I think most members mean they "know" that the Church is exactly what it claims to be -- the Kingdom of God on earth.

I think most people who have some doubts about whether the Church is literally what it claims to be tend to say things more along the lines of "I'm thankful for the Church and the Gospel and it helps me in my life." That's actually the kind of testimony I prefer -- I'm cynical and not a big fan of the lists of all of the things people "know." Can't we just have faith and express our faith without trying to impress everybody with our absolute knowledge of things?

I don't think most people truly "know" all the things they say they know in regards to the Church, but I fully admit I may be wrong about that. I don't feel like there is very much, especially regarding Church history and abstract theological principles that I can say I "know."