"Mormonism, Romney, and Race"

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Do you possess courage? At least as it pertains to this issue of racism and the church? Most of your crusading du jour seems to be behind a cloak of invisibility on this chat board, but obviously I do not know what you do in your real life.

Have you spoken with your local leaders about your concerns?

The issue never seems to come up.

I guess a real test will come if say in Aaronic Priesthood, the former member of the stake presidency is giving the lesson, and the bishopric is sitting there, and I step in and say "excuse me, what you are saying is horse shit. Let me provide you with some facts to help you make up your mind."

I think it would be important to say something, because a majority of the boys in my ward are minorities for one. I would say something.

Maybe the Lord will inspire my Bishop to have me give a talk on the subject.

Lord, it's in your court now.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The issue never seems to come up.

I guess a real test will come if say in Aaronic Priesthood, the former member of the stake presidency is giving the lesson, and the bishopric is sitting there, and I step in and say "excuse me, what you are saying is horse shit. Let me provide you with some facts to help you make up your mind."

I think it would be important to say something, because a majority of the boys in my ward are minorities for one. I would say something.

Maybe the Lord will inspire my Bishop to have me give a talk on the subject.

Lord, it's in your court now.

It was a simple yes/no question that went entirely unanswered, mittwaters.

This is an issue that seems to be quite important to you. You seem convinced that Church needs to be proactive about admitting its past, even to members of national media, so that members and non-members alike will gain a better understanding of our practices, both current and past.

Are you abdicating all responsibility to Church leadership? For example, did you actively teach people about these closely held core beliefs of yours while on your mission? Did you let people know of our racist past? If not, why? Do you feel any obligation to those whom you have taught to now let them know the truth of our racist past?

Your answer above seems to indicate that you believe strongly enough in this cause to address it, MAYBE, if you are in the safe confines of a Sunday meeting and the topic comes up, and someone else is addressing it while you stand off to the side listening...then you might speak up and share some insight.

That doesn't seem like courage to me. It seems like cowardice. Why not go out on a limb and educate your local leaders as to your opinions? Like you said, personal risk is a necessary ingredient in courage.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

It was a simple yes/no question that went entirely unanswered, mittwaters.

This is an issue that seems to be quite important to you. You seem convinced that Church needs to be proactive about admitting its past, even to members of national media, so that members and non-members alike will gain a better understanding of our practices, both current and past.

Are you abdicating all responsibility to Church leadership? For example, did you actively teach people about these closely held core beliefs of yours while on your mission? Did you let people know of our racist past? If not, why? Do you feel any obligation to those whom you have taught to now let them know the truth of our racist past?

Your answer above seems to indicate that you believe strongly enough in this cause to address it, MAYBE, if you are in the safe confines of a Sunday meeting and the topic comes up, and someone else is addressing it while you stand off to the side listening...then you might speak up and share some insight.

That doesn't seem like courage to me. It seems like cowardice. Why not go out on a limb and educate your local leaders as to your opinions? Like you said, personal risk is a necessary ingredient in courage.

I didn't teach it on my mission because I had not been exposed to the truth yet.

How would you suggest I educate my local leaders? And please don't suggest some of your usual unfunny bullshit.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I didn't teach it on my mission because I had not been exposed to the truth yet.

How would you suggest I educate my local leaders? And please don't suggest some of your usual unfunny bullshit.

Unfunny? Surely you jest.

Actually, I have no idea. I am looking to you. You seem to be very charged about this issue, and how imperative it is for this message of racism to be disseminated to the masses, lest we suffer a rising tide of hostility and apostasy.

So I am basically asking you a few things--assuming you are correct about your hysteria:

1. What are YOU doing about it? other than post on an anonymous message board, what are you willing to do? You mentioned Juanita Brooks. Have you submitted anything for publishing...to Sunstone or the like? Or even to non-LDS publications? Using your real name? I would assume you have solid writing and research skills. Have you used them for the furthering of this cause?
2. What do you suggest OTHERS do about it? You claim you are banging a drum. Well, help others march along. What do you suggest we all do? What do you suggest, in an ideal world, that the Church do? Call a press conference? admit to mass racism? then what? What is the plan after that, if that is the plan at all?
3. Have you spoken with your Bishop and Stake President about this issue, in particular? Perhaps they are not as well-read as you. Would you be willing to disassociate yourself from the Church if it does not fall into line with your view of how this charged issue should be handled? And if not, then how strongly do you really believe in the cause?

The two people you have referenced, MLK and Juanita Brooks, ultimately paid a huge sacrifice for their beliefs. So like I said....do you have courage?

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Too bad I'm not running for president.

When asked if it was wrong I would stand up and shout "Hell yes, it was wrong!"

Too bad no one in power is willing to tell the truth. But it will be increasingly uncomfortable for Romney and the apostles to say "no" when asked if the pre-1978 policy was wrong.

I would resign by apostleship before faced to say that.

Sure Mike, and then they'd ask you your views on polygamy. Then after that your position on the Church's position on the ERA. Then after that your position on women and the priesthood. Then after that your position on the Church's views on the family. Then after that your position on the Church's seeming looking the other way on illegal aliens. Then after that . . .

At some point you'd start asking yourself what any of those positions had to do with being the President of the United States.

If people want to know Romney's views on Civil Rights they should, as with any other candidate, look at his record. There is plenty there to examine.

This whole thing is bullshit and you would accept a big pile with arms wide open, then turn and say, "Thank you sir, may I have some more."

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Unfunny? Surely you jest.

Actually, I have no idea. I am looking to you. You seem to be very charged about this issue, and how imperative it is for this message of racism to be disseminated to the masses, lest we suffer a rising tide of hostility and apostasy.

So I am basically asking you a few things--assuming you are correct about your hysteria:

1. What are YOU doing about it? other than post on an anonymous message board, what are you willing to do? You mentioned Juanita Brooks. Have you submitted anything for publishing...to Sunstone or the like? Or even to non-LDS publications? Using your real name? I would assume you have solid writing and research skills. Have you used them for the furthering of this cause?
2. What do you suggest OTHERS do about it? You claim you are banging a drum. Well, help others march along. What do you suggest we all do? What do you suggest, in an ideal world, that the Church do? Call a press conference? admit to mass racism? then what? What is the plan after that, if that is the plan at all?
3. Have you spoken with your Bishop and Stake President about this issue, in particular? Perhaps they are not as well-read as you. Would you be willing to disassociate yourself from the Church if it does not fall into line with your view of how this charged issue should be handled? And if not, then how strongly do you really believe in the cause?

The two people you have referenced, MLK and Juanita Brooks, ultimately paid a huge sacrifice for their beliefs. So like I said....do you have courage?

I have published my views in the Student Review newspaper at BYU, under my own name. Of course that paper is defunct, and the once archive on the internet went under and exists no more.

I don't think I *could* really publish anymore, because I'm not qualified to. And there are many people that are qualified. Best thing I can do is support the people who *are* publishing. Like, for example, Darron Smith, who edited a recent anthology on the subject, and was recently fired from BYU because he taught that the ban stemmed from racism (he was my teacher).

As far as me disassociating from the church, I think it's the other way around. Will the church choose to disassociate itself from me?

Best thing you can do is preach the gospel. Tell your friends and relatives. Don't let lies win the day. As I've said before, the truth is viral. When a person learns that JS ordained a black man and had a plan to free the slaves, and that all the reasons that they were told over the years about blacks being denies, is in the churchs own words "bullshit", their eyes light up. The message sells itself.

There will likely be many on the board that will be asked a question by a friend or colleague about the ban. Good opportunity to tell the truth. But the best thing you can do is tell your member friends, at the right time, when the topic arises.

Something as simple as emailing a scholar who is on the frontlines and saying, "look, I'm a member, I know you've taken flack, but I am 100% behind you. God bless you for your courage." That's something.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Sure Mike, and then they'd ask you your views on polygamy. Then after that your position on the Church's position on the ERA. Then after that your position on women and the priesthood. Then after that your position on the Church's views on the family. Then after that your position on the Church's seeming looking the other way on illegal aliens. Then after that . . .

At some point you'd start asking yourself what any of those positions had to do with being the President of the United States.

If people want to know Romney's views on Civil Rights they should, as with any other candidate, look at his record. There is plenty there to examine.

This whole thing is bullshit and you would accept a big pile with arms wide open, then turn and say, "Thank you sir, may I have some more."

The race issue is a seminal issue however. I think it is different. And I think a refusal to answer it may do serious harm to Romney, moreso than your other examples.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Romney lost the presidency because he took a stand defending the ban against blacks? That sort of irony is mind-boggling to me.

Huckabee not answering the question about whether Mormonism is a cult or not has been HUGE in the press. Huckabee's defense is that he will not answer any questions about Mormonism because it is not his place.

Likewise, Romney not answering about racism and the ban will be huge, or rather, could be huge.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The race issue is a seminal issue however. I think it is different. And I think a refusal to answer it may do serious harm to Romney, moreso than your other examples.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Romney lost the presidency because he took a stand defending the ban against blacks? That sort of irony is mind-boggling to me.

Huckabee not answering the question about whether Mormonism is a cult or not has been HUGE in the press. Huckabee's defense is that he will not answer any questions about Mormonism because it is not his place.

Likewise, Romney not answering about racism and the ban will be huge, or rather, could be huge.

How is it seminal? Is there anything in Romney's past that suggests he holds racist views? I bet it is very much to the contrary. We're talking about something that happened 30 years ago. It's a non-issue and a red herring that if answered will only open the door to more.

He's said that the announcement was a wonderful day. That's enough. He's got a record. Let people judge him on that.

[BYU71]

[QUOTE=MikeWaters;164006]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Privately telling someone he wasn't happy with the church's proselyting policy, and you hearing about it as hearsay.

That took amazing courage I'm sure. Give me a break.

You want to see courage why you don't you look right here.
<-----------

It was well known in the area, not as a private conversation. I know what I felt and how I took it, I was there. I don't need you to recreate the situation and explain it to me. Your responses are making it hard for me to further take you seriously on this issue. Everyone seems to be impure on the subject except you.

[MikeWaters]

You want to know a little bit about courage, see Hugh B. Brown. See Juanita Brooks. See Darron Smith.

Did Romney stand to lose anything? If he did, then it was a measure of courage. If not, then it was merely nice, and not courage.