im becoming disenchanted with the church.... - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

fusnik11 · 10-31-2005, 04:23 PM

thanks cougarguard.....freakin appreciate it....

:wink:

watched the joseph program last night on kbyu and was disappointed the 'truth' wasnt fully represented. i sincerely like our history with its warts much more than the fluff they feed us.

Archaea · 10-31-2005, 04:33 PM

as the atonement is the most important aspect. Without a testimony and understanding of that, all else is fruitless.

Dan · 10-31-2005, 04:53 PM

You have to realize, the men (1st P & Q12) directing what truth gets out, etc. are doing what they think is best for the members and potential members on the whole. I tend to think I may agree with them if I were in their place. From their point ov view, why would you raise various convers about different episodes if it may hurt the tender faith of some or many members? Sure, a smaller percentage would come through the trial of their faith with strengthened rigor, but many would be lost along the way because of their disenchantment. I have been where you are fusnik. many have. Many, perhaps a majority to down the road away from the church and never come back. They feel betrayed and they let it eat at them until they leave the church.

You have to realize the role of the church. more people feel it is more than it really is. The church is the school ground for the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. It is to help you transform from a child to an adult spiritually. Once an 'adult', you realize YOU can speak to God directly. You do not need others to do it for you. The leaders of the church are doing what they feel is best to give the greater number of people the best shot at becoming spiritual adults. Though I personally love truth, I cannot say I blame them for their course of action. But as someone who personally has awakened to more relative church than most members, I am aware I can persue my own studies for my self. I do not need for it all to be shoveled on the church as a whole. Most are not ready spiritually to be faced with various issues as it goes too strongly against their paradigms and lots of things that most members "know" are true with "every fiber of their being". When people are ready to hear, they will find it.

Parrot Head · 10-31-2005, 05:25 PM

I think you got your boards mixed up. Isn't this one of those I'm-being-anal-and-trying-to-rile-people-up posts that you usually reserve for CB? I thought this was the board where you posed decent, somewhat coherent questions and thoughts, before mangling the idea on CB to get them in a tizzy.

But to play the game and bite at your bait, what are you talking about?! Ummm, it was on KBYU and and, I assume, made by or with help from the Church. And you expect them to, for no reason, throw out things that aren't as well publicized or palatable? Do you go into job interviews and tell the employer, "Yeah, I like to sleep in until around noon, I spend a lot of time on some chatboards online and I'm not really that good with working without directions." If you do, I assume you don't get many callbacks. And if you're "disenchanted with the church" for sharing the good, spiritual stuff, then I doubt you're one of those few Dan said would receive strength from knowing the warts.

Again, the second paragraph is merely the biting at the weak bait you threw out.

fusnik11 · 10-31-2005, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parrot Head

I think you got your boards mixed up. Isn't this one of those I'm-being-anal-and-trying-to-rile-people-up posts that you usually reserve for CB? I thought this was the board where you posed decent, somewhat coherent questions and thoughts, before mangling the idea on CB to get them in a tizzy.

But to play the game and bite at your bait, what are you talking about?! Ummm, it was on KBYU and and, I assume, made by or with help from the Church. And you expect them to, for no reason, throw out things that aren't as well publicized or palatable? Do you go into job interviews and tell the employer, "Yeah, I like to sleep in until around noon, I spend a lot of time on some chatboards online and I'm not really that good with working without directions." If you do, I assume you don't get many callbacks. And if you're "disenchanted with the church" for sharing the good, spiritual stuff, then I doubt you're one of those few Dan said would receive strength from knowing the warts.

oh great, the first siting of lameness on this board.

obviously you mesacouged my original post and missed the smiley face indicating a tongue in cheek first line, and the second part where my disenchantment with the church is not because of the good, spiritual stuff shared on kbyu....

i was disappointed with the kbyu presentation because it thoroughly glossed.....

ill tell you one thing though, am i struggling with post manifesto polygamy?

yes, yes i am.

UtahDan · 10-31-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parrot Head

I think you got your boards mixed up. Isn't this one of those I'm-being-anal-and-trying-to-rile-people-up posts that you usually reserve for CB? I thought this was the board where you posed decent, somewhat coherent questions and thoughts, before mangling the idea on CB to get them in a tizzy.

But to play the game and bite at your bait, what are you talking about?! Ummm, it was on KBYU and and, I assume, made by or with help from the Church. And you expect them to, for no reason, throw out things that aren't as well publicized or palatable? Do you go into job interviews and tell the employer, "Yeah, I like to sleep in until around noon, I spend a lot of time on some chatboards online and I'm not really that good with working without directions." If you do, I assume you don't get many callbacks. And if you're "disenchanted with the church" for sharing the good, spiritual stuff, then I doubt you're one of those few Dan said would receive strength from knowing the warts.

Again, the second paragraph is merely the biting at the weak bait you threw out.

I think this is a very interesting question actually, and I wonder if you are glossing over it a little.

Your point seems to be "well duh, no one accentuates the negative and we should expect any person or entity to put its best foot forward." While I agree that this point seems intuitive, I wonder if it applies as much to the One True Church as it does to an ad campaine for sneakers or the local delegate running for the state legislature.

I think that what has been said about prospective members maybe not being able to handle all the warts is clearly true. But I also think that it is POSSIBLE (not saying this is what has occurred) to leave so many salient things out that you what you have left has the effect of being a misrepresentation. I think that there is danger is sanitizing so much that the result is exactly that. At that point you aren't putting your best foot forward, you are lying. This is okay for Pepsi Corp, perhaps, but not for the only true church.

Now again, I'm not saying I think this is the case, though I have had some moments where I have thought it came very close. I just think it is worth thinking about whether we have to be a little more "squeaky clean" in that regard.

non sequitur · 10-31-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

You have to realize, the men (1st P & Q12) directing what truth gets out, etc. are doing what they think is best for the members and potential members on the whole. I tend to think I may agree with them if I were in their place. From their point ov view, why would you raise various convers about different episodes if it may hurt the tender faith of some or many members?

That is a completely indefensible position. As soon as you get in the business of "directing what truth gets out" you are no longer dealing in truth; you are dealing in obfuscation and propaganda. How arrogant is it for people who supposedly know the whole truth to decide which portions of that truth others should have access to? I realize at times you have to market the Church and you have to be concerned with public relations, but not at the expense of simple honesty.

UtahDan · 10-31-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Quote:

You have to realize, the men (1st P & Q12) directing what truth gets out, etc. are doing what they think is best for the members and potential members on the whole. I tend to think I may agree with them if I were in their place. From their point ov view, why would you raise various convers about different episodes if it may hurt the tender faith of some or many members?

That is a completely indefensible position. As soon as you get in the business of "directing what truth gets out" you are no longer dealing in truth; you are dealing in obfuscation and propaganda. How arrogant is it for people who supposedly know the whole truth to decide which portions of that truth others should have access to? I realize at times you have to market the Church and you have to be concerned with public relations, but not at the expense of simple honesty.

I don't see it as quite that cut and dried, but I do wonder whether we might not be better off expending energy assimilating our past into our belief system (including when applicable, where mistakes have been made) rather than figuring out what parts play best.

While I know that it is not a perfect analogy. I would point out that none of the compilers of the BOM, particularly Mormon, tried to sanitize anything. In fact, we see the church and its members with all of their warts, and gain insight particularly because of the warts, the struggles, the disobedience, the consequences, etc. Can you imgaine a BOM where Mormon had decided that it was just too controversial to give the conversion story of either one of the Almas? Or left out the part about Laban being beheaded? Now this has really got me thinking.... :-)

MikeWaters · 10-31-2005, 07:01 PM

Dan is saying milk before meat.

The meat is out there for anyone who wants it.

How is it that we are talking about these very subjects? Because they are in the public domain.

I don't expect to go to church and get a historical account of the manifesto.

Also, the manifesto is not the bedrock of my faith. It is something on the periphery. If things bother me enough, I put them in the "to do" box and investigate it further at some point.

I have a friend, college graduate with advanced degree and lifelong member, whose testimony was rocked by Krakauer's book for heaven's sake!

The winds and tides will come. You have to have a very basic understanding of what your bedrock is, how you came to it, or even the realization that you don't have one and may want one.

fusnik11 · 10-31-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Dan is saying milk before meat.

The meat is out there for anyone who wants it.

How is it that we are talking about these very subjects? Because they are in the public domain.

I don't expect to go to church and get a historical account of the manifesto.

Also, the manifesto is not the bedrock of my faith. It is something on the periphery. If things bother me enough, I put them in the "to do" box and investigate it further at some point.

i understand this point. my concerns regarding the manifesto and post polygamy are simple....

a. its cannonized.
b. it was 'ratified' by the church.
c. subsequently was disobeyed by the main leadership of our church.

how freaked out would we be if after elder holland said girls shouldnt wear flip flops to church if he started handing out flip flops at the doors of the church and saying, im not saying you should wear them, but here they are, and if you want i wont stop you.....

i know the example is elementary, but even in an example as small as flip flops in church, the membership of the church would flip, especially after his recent talk.

but we are talking polygamy, breaking the law, lying about breaking the law, and encouraging the breaking of law. that doesnt ring ok with me....

10-31-2005, 04:23 PM	#1
fusnik11 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,506	im becoming disenchanted with the church.... thanks cougarguard.....freakin appreciate it.... :wink: watched the joseph program last night on kbyu and was disappointed the 'truth' wasnt fully represented. i sincerely like our history with its warts much more than the fluff they feed us.

10-31-2005, 04:33 PM	#2
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	don't become too focused upon the warts as the atonement is the most important aspect. Without a testimony and understanding of that, all else is fruitless. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

10-31-2005, 04:53 PM	#3
Dan Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Elk Grove, California Posts: 211	You need balance Fusnik You have to realize, the men (1st P & Q12) directing what truth gets out, etc. are doing what they think is best for the members and potential members on the whole. I tend to think I may agree with them if I were in their place. From their point ov view, why would you raise various convers about different episodes if it may hurt the tender faith of some or many members? Sure, a smaller percentage would come through the trial of their faith with strengthened rigor, but many would be lost along the way because of their disenchantment. I have been where you are fusnik. many have. Many, perhaps a majority to down the road away from the church and never come back. They feel betrayed and they let it eat at them until they leave the church. You have to realize the role of the church. more people feel it is more than it really is. The church is the school ground for the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. It is to help you transform from a child to an adult spiritually. Once an 'adult', you realize YOU can speak to God directly. You do not need others to do it for you. The leaders of the church are doing what they feel is best to give the greater number of people the best shot at becoming spiritual adults. Though I personally love truth, I cannot say I blame them for their course of action. But as someone who personally has awakened to more relative church than most members, I am aware I can persue my own studies for my self. I do not need for it all to be shoveled on the church as a whole. Most are not ready spiritually to be faced with various issues as it goes too strongly against their paradigms and lots of things that most members "know" are true with "every fiber of their being". When people are ready to hear, they will find it. __________________ Dan Temet Nosce - \"Know Thyself\"

10-31-2005, 05:25 PM	#4
Parrot Head Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 763	I think you got your boards mixed up. Isn't this one of those I'm-being-anal-and-trying-to-rile-people-up posts that you usually reserve for CB? I thought this was the board where you posed decent, somewhat coherent questions and thoughts, before mangling the idea on CB to get them in a tizzy. But to play the game and bite at your bait, what are you talking about?! Ummm, it was on KBYU and and, I assume, made by or with help from the Church. And you expect them to, for no reason, throw out things that aren't as well publicized or palatable? Do you go into job interviews and tell the employer, "Yeah, I like to sleep in until around noon, I spend a lot of time on some chatboards online and I'm not really that good with working without directions." If you do, I assume you don't get many callbacks. And if you're "disenchanted with the church" for sharing the good, spiritual stuff, then I doubt you're one of those few Dan said would receive strength from knowing the warts. Again, the second paragraph is merely the biting at the weak bait you threw out.

10-31-2005, 07:01 PM	#9
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Dan is saying milk before meat. The meat is out there for anyone who wants it. How is it that we are talking about these very subjects? Because they are in the public domain. I don't expect to go to church and get a historical account of the manifesto. Also, the manifesto is not the bedrock of my faith. It is something on the periphery. If things bother me enough, I put them in the "to do" box and investigate it further at some point. I have a friend, college graduate with advanced degree and lifelong member, whose testimony was rocked by Krakauer's book for heaven's sake! The winds and tides will come. You have to have a very basic understanding of what your bedrock is, how you came to it, or even the realization that you don't have one and may want one.