another issue with confession.....

[fusnik11]

since the guidelines are ambiguous, the penalties associated with confessed sin is different for every person, ward, stake, area. this causes inconsistent penalties for different people. ive had bishops who were super strict at byu and the repentance process lasted months while others who told me theyve seen overnight forgiveness for the most vile of sin...

for example....

when i was interviewed prior to missionary service i was read a document from spencer w kimball outlining penalties associated with sin.

it read something like this.

if a serious transgression is committed a one year probationary period is suggested, if the transgression happens more than once a two to three year period is suggested.....

my stake president looks me in the eye and says, i intrepret this as, if you have intercourse once you wait a year until you serve, if you have it twice you wait 2 years, three times three years, and if you have intercourse more than 3 times i will need to consider your ability to serve a full time mission.

this happened well before the 'bar was raised' and by a stake president who became an area authority and will soon be part of the 1st or 2nd quorum of the seventies....

the inconsistency between ward, stake and area leaderships is hard for some people to reconcile.

[MikeWaters]

isn't there some sort of appeal process, where you can appeal to the stake president, or from there higher?

[The_Tick]

My mother went through a disciplinary council....

And this is how I understand that it went.....

She did something she shouldn't have. She went to the bishop. Talked with the bishop...

Disciplinary council is conveined....

After she states her case she is disfellowshiped. One member of the bishopric is upset that she wasn't excommunicated.

Now, I have never been in a bishopric but I don't understand how the voting/stating of opinion takes place.

What she did was wrong....but for there to be a "voting" process that is BS.

[MikeWaters]

I don't know that anyone has stated there is a voting process....

I know that when it goes before the stake, that a member of the high council takes on an advocacy role (like a lawyer) for the "accused".

It's clear that even the apostles haven't always agreed on who should be excommed and who shouldn't.

[fusnik11]

they discuss, debate, argue, on what should be done.

they discuss the positives of retaining full membership vs the need for justice.

thats at the bishopric level.

if it reaches farther than that and a stake presidency and high council are involved, they have a court, where the person pleas their case, can have witnesses testify on the transgressors behalf and discuss what should be done.

i think ultimately in a ward the bishop has the final say. and id assume it the same if it reached the stake level.

i believe it only goes to the stake level if excommunication is a real possibility. since people dont get exed anymore, and its much more difficult to receive the axe, i doubt these proceedings take place with much frequency and when they do its probably pretty easy to reach the conclusion of excommunication.

[Archaea]

I haven't had to suffer the indignity of being present, as I didn't wear a tie during the only one occurring, so I was dismissed. See there are advantages of not wearing a tie. :P

However, from what I can tell, it's usually unanimous. Why would somebody invest so much emotion to appeal a disfellowship?

Weird.

We had a member in Germany who was living with her boyfriend, but regularly attended. Bishop stated if he exed her, she'd never return and there would be no chance of repentance. I like that approach as opposed to the heavy handed approach.

[MikeWaters]

why do you say they don't ex people anymore?

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

why do you say they don't ex people anymore?

what i meant is they dont ex with near as much frequency as they used to....

there were strong feelings that it better that a person retain membership and hope they come back than ex them and essentially lose them forever.

being exed is almost a near impossibility. you have to basically write a book, half sex with multiple women and not care, say you dont care about your membership....

at least this is what i have been told by a couple of dudes who know much more than i do.

i guess in the 80's it was a fad to ex people for adultery, etc, and the church realized they were losing good members forever who made some bad choices and switched to lets disfellowship them, keep them on the books and hopefully repent and return to full status membership in a much quicker and easier fashion.

i think church growth also has something to do with excommunications decreasing.

[MikeWaters]

my dad is on high council and has been involved (I think) in several excoms.

People commit crimes. DOn't forget that.

[SteelBlue]

Fusnik is correct where adultery is concerned. Used to be an automatic Ex. Now, if you don't have a prominent position in the church, it is not an automatic and disfellowshipping is more common. If you do have a "prominent" calling then excommunication becomes much more likely.