Honest question...

[Black Diamond Bay]

I have been wondering about something for a long time, as in years. So I figure I'll let you all weigh in on it and share your thoughts.

This is the issue. I think I have a pretty good idea of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate the vast majority of the time. That being said, I wonder sometimes how I can reconcile that knowledge with everday life, without becoming an extremist.

The most obvious example I think is probably the media. I go watch movies that I know before I even purchase the ticket that there's some offensive material in that presentation. Someone has come right out and told me that there is, and yet the alternative is to what? Only watch G movies, and get rid of the tv? That seems to me to be a little over the top...and besides, I need the tv for football season.

No one is going to look at me and say that I shouldn't have watched that movie because the contents were offensive, and therefore I've sinned...okay, most people are not that judgmental. However, since I knew what I was doing, and what I was exposing myself to, and willingly forged on ahead, does that act not actually qualify as a sin?

The point is not isolated to the media, that just seems like the easiest example. Here's another example, I participate in a fantasy football league that has a pot. I pony up my $25 every year to play. Now I'm pretty sure that GBH has classified that as gambling, and has expressly asked members not to gamble. I can't say that I really feel at all bad about putting my money in and playing, but technically I know that a living prophet has specifically stated that I shouldn't be doing that. I would assume that no one here is going to think less of me for playing, but at the same time, should I bow out of my league because in actuality I know better, and I'm willfully ignoring prophetic counsel? Again, that seems really extreme to me, I'm not an addict, it's the only form of gambling I participate in.

In essence, do we not inventory our lives and say to ourselves that "these are the things that tempt me or that I've actually done that I will repent of and/or stay away from, because I'm not okay with those sins. However, these sins over here, I realize that they're not in line with instruction I've received, but I feel like I can still get away with them without it impacting my church membership, family relationships, and/or friendships They're minor enough that I won't feel bad, and I will still classify as a 'good member' without seeming so over the top that I become that person that seems to have actually taken their religion so far that they're a little out of touch with reality." Are the second set of sins actually acceptable, and there's an expectation that we'll go throughout life hanging on to some of those without any serious negative repercussions in the end, or are we being asked to do whatever it takes, no matter how extreme it may seem to eliminate those offenses from our lives as well? Does this really make any sense?

I had a dream about 3 years ago, that I'm unwilling to post about on a public forum that made me take all of this into consideration. I don't know, I'd share...but you never know who all those guests are that are reading this, and so it makes me a bit uneasy. I hope I articulated the question well enough that you get the idea without the background, if you feel you need some clarification please feel free to boardmail.

[ute4ever]

The purpose of prophetic counsel is for it to be a guide to help you stay on the straight and narrow path. If you can watch unclean entertainment and continue to keep its contents out of your daily life, and walk out of the theater without having lost the spirit, then I don't see a problem.

Since moving to CA 3 1/2 years ago, I've probably spent a total of $15 on lottery tickets. If it became a habit where I would play more and more frequently, then I would stop. Meanwhile I don't feel bad about losing that $15 because it looks like some general authorities spend a lot more than $15 on desserts quite regularly.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I have been wondering about something for a long time, as in years. So I figure I'll let you all weigh in on it and share your thoughts.

This is the issue. I think I have a pretty good idea of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate the vast majority of the time. That being said, I wonder sometimes how I can reconcile that knowledge with everday life, without becoming an extremist.

The most obvious example I think is probably the media. I go watch movies that I know before I even purchase the ticket that there's some offensive material in that presentation. Someone has come right out and told me that there is, and yet the alternative is to what? Only watch G movies, and get rid of the tv? That seems to me to be a little over the top...and besides, I need the tv for football season.

No one is going to look at me and say that I shouldn't have watched that movie because the contents were offensive, and therefore I've sinned...okay, most people are not that judgmental. However, since I knew what I was doing, and what I was exposing myself to, and willingly forged on ahead, does that act not actually qualify as a sin?

The point is not isolated to the media, that just seems like the easiest example. Here's another example, I participate in a fantasy football league that has a pot. I pony up my $25 every year to play. Now I'm pretty sure that GBH has classified that as gambling, and has expressly asked members not to gamble. I can't say that I really feel at all bad about putting my money in and playing, but technically I know that a living prophet has specifically stated that I shouldn't be doing that. I would assume that no one here is going to think less of me for playing, but at the same time, should I bow out of my league because in actuality I know better, and I'm willfully ignoring prophetic counsel? Again, that seems really extreme to me, I'm not an addict, it's the only form of gambling I participate in.

In essence, do we not inventory our lives and say to ourselves that "these are the things that tempt me or that I've actually done that I will repent of and/or stay away from, because I'm not okay with those sins. However, these sins over here, I realize that they're not in line with instruction I've received, but I feel like I can still get away with them without it impacting my church membership, family relationships, and/or friendships They're minor enough that I won't feel bad, and I will still classify as a 'good member' without seeming so over the top that I become that person that seems to have actually taken their religion so far that they're a little out of touch with reality." Are the second set of sins actually acceptable, and there's an expectation that we'll go throughout life hanging on to some of those without any serious negative repercussions in the end, or are we being asked to do whatever it takes, no matter how extreme it may seem to eliminate those offenses from our lives as well? Does this really make any sense?

I had a dream about 3 years ago, that I'm unwilling to post about on a public forum that made me take all of this into consideration. I don't know, I'd share...but you never know who all those guests are that are reading this, and so it makes me a bit uneasy. I hope I articulated the question well enough that you get the idea without the background, if you feel you need some clarification please feel free to boardmail.

Look around you BDB. All the people you see are doing exactly what you are describing. If they weren't, they would be translated. Seriously. We ALL do it. Luckily for us we have the atonement. I don't personally know anyone whose mental health would survive fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law. There is clearly a paradox in that, but I am comfortable with getting the big things right (and yes I do believe that there are big and small things) and not beating myself up over my every imperfection or even over every conscious choice that doesn't fully comply with the commandments.

IMO, this is everyone, whether they admit it or not.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Look around you BDB. All the people you see are doing exactly what you are describing. If they weren't, they would be translated. Seriously. We ALL do it. Luckily for us we have the atonement. I don't personally know anyone whose mental health would survive fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law. There is clearly a paradox in that, but I am comfortable with getting the big things right (and yes I do believe that there are big and small things) and not beating myself up over my every imperfection or even over every conscious choice that doesn't fully comply with the commandments.

IMO, this is everyone, whether they admit it or not.

I realize it's everyone, but have you just settled in and said "good enough," and therefore felt no need to even try and remedy some of the smaller issues? For the atonement to kick in don't you have to at least be making an attempt at improvement?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I have been wondering about something for a long time, as in years. So I figure I'll let you all weigh in on it and share your thoughts.

This is the issue. I think I have a pretty good idea of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate the vast majority of the time. That being said, I wonder sometimes how I can reconcile that knowledge with everday life, without becoming an extremist.

The most obvious example I think is probably the media. I go watch movies that I know before I even purchase the ticket that there's some offensive material in that presentation. Someone has come right out and told me that there is, and yet the alternative is to what? Only watch G movies, and get rid of the tv? That seems to me to be a little over the top...and besides, I need the tv for football season.

No one is going to look at me and say that I shouldn't have watched that movie because the contents were offensive, and therefore I've sinned...okay, most people are not that judgmental. However, since I knew what I was doing, and what I was exposing myself to, and willingly forged on ahead, does that act not actually qualify as a sin?

The point is not isolated to the media, that just seems like the easiest example. Here's another example, I participate in a fantasy football league that has a pot. I pony up my $25 every year to play. Now I'm pretty sure that GBH has classified that as gambling, and has expressly asked members not to gamble. I can't say that I really feel at all bad about putting my money in and playing, but technically I know that a living prophet has specifically stated that I shouldn't be doing that. I would assume that no one here is going to think less of me for playing, but at the same time, should I bow out of my league because in actuality I know better, and I'm willfully ignoring prophetic counsel? Again, that seems really extreme to me, I'm not an addict, it's the only form of gambling I participate in.

In essence, do we not inventory our lives and say to ourselves that "these are the things that tempt me or that I've actually done that I will repent of and/or stay away from, because I'm not okay with those sins. However, these sins over here, I realize that they're not in line with instruction I've received, but I feel like I can still get away with them without it impacting my church membership, family relationships, and/or friendships They're minor enough that I won't feel bad, and I will still classify as a 'good member' without seeming so over the top that I become that person that seems to have actually taken their religion so far that they're a little out of touch with reality." Are the second set of sins actually acceptable, and there's an expectation that we'll go throughout life hanging on to some of those without any serious negative repercussions in the end, or are we being asked to do whatever it takes, no matter how extreme it may seem to eliminate those offenses from our lives as well? Does this really make any sense?

I had a dream about 3 years ago, that I'm unwilling to post about on a public forum that made me take all of this into consideration. I don't know, I'd share...but you never know who all those guests are that are reading this, and so it makes me a bit uneasy. I hope I articulated the question well enough that you get the idea without the background, if you feel you need some clarification please feel free to boardmail.

I could talk with you about media until the cows come home.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I have been wondering about something for a long time, as in years. So I figure I'll let you all weigh in on it and share your thoughts.

This is the issue. I think I have a pretty good idea of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate the vast majority of the time. That being said, I wonder sometimes how I can reconcile that knowledge with everday life, without becoming an extremist.

The most obvious example I think is probably the media. I go watch movies that I know before I even purchase the ticket that there's some offensive material in that presentation. Someone has come right out and told me that there is, and yet the alternative is to what? Only watch G movies, and get rid of the tv? That seems to me to be a little over the top...and besides, I need the tv for football season.

No one is going to look at me and say that I shouldn't have watched that movie because the contents were offensive, and therefore I've sinned...okay, most people are not that judgmental. However, since I knew what I was doing, and what I was exposing myself to, and willingly forged on ahead, does that act not actually qualify as a sin?

The point is not isolated to the media, that just seems like the easiest example. Here's another example, I participate in a fantasy football league that has a pot. I pony up my $25 every year to play. Now I'm pretty sure that GBH has classified that as gambling, and has expressly asked members not to gamble. I can't say that I really feel at all bad about putting my money in and playing, but technically I know that a living prophet has specifically stated that I shouldn't be doing that. I would assume that no one here is going to think less of me for playing, but at the same time, should I bow out of my league because in actuality I know better, and I'm willfully ignoring prophetic counsel? Again, that seems really extreme to me, I'm not an addict, it's the only form of gambling I participate in.

In essence, do we not inventory our lives and say to ourselves that "these are the things that tempt me or that I've actually done that I will repent of and/or stay away from, because I'm not okay with those sins. However, these sins over here, I realize that they're not in line with instruction I've received, but I feel like I can still get away with them without it impacting my church membership, family relationships, and/or friendships They're minor enough that I won't feel bad, and I will still classify as a 'good member' without seeming so over the top that I become that person that seems to have actually taken their religion so far that they're a little out of touch with reality." Are the second set of sins actually acceptable, and there's an expectation that we'll go throughout life hanging on to some of those without any serious negative repercussions in the end, or are we being asked to do whatever it takes, no matter how extreme it may seem to eliminate those offenses from our lives as well? Does this really make any sense?

I had a dream about 3 years ago, that I'm unwilling to post about on a public forum that made me take all of this into consideration. I don't know, I'd share...but you never know who all those guests are that are reading this, and so it makes me a bit uneasy. I hope I articulated the question well enough that you get the idea without the background, if you feel you need some clarification please feel free to boardmail.

The item you are missing is that going against prophetic counsel does not equal sinning. Counsel is welll Counsel...

I am of the opinion that if you do your best to obey the two great commandments the little stuff you are talking about here will be taken care of.

[jay santos]

My views on grace/works/sin/worthiness/perfection are not always the norm here, but I still know I'm right.

Yes, those things you mention are sins. But then you might be sinning in about ten different ways just as we speak. IMHO, anything we do, say, or think that is not 100% in alignment with what God would do or wants us to do is a sin.

Sinning or not sinning is not black and white. It's a thousand variations of gray. God knows we will sin, nearly constantly. We're not expected to live without sin. We're expected to accept Christ and his grace that overcomes sin. We exercise faith in him, repent of our sins, and attempt to follow him best we can, and continue the process repenting constantly and taking sacrament renewing covenants.

So bottom line is do the best you can, don't beat yourself up but acknowledge when and where you fall short, keep repenting and attempting to follow him, know you are in the covenant of Christ, and be happy that you have salvation if you continue on the path.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

The item you are missing is that going against prophetic counsel does not equal sinning. Counsel is welll Counsel...

I am of the opinion that if you do your best to obey the two great commandments the little stuff you are talking about here will be taken care of.

Prophetic counsel seems to be sort of easily dismissed around here, this I know. Didn't he say it was wrong though? It seems to me that the counsel was, along the lines of "stay away, because it's wrong (i.e. a sin). Maybe we don't all see it that way...

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Prophetic counsel seems to be sort of easily dismissed around here, this I know. Didn't he say it was wrong though? It seems to me that the counsel was, along the lines of "stay away, because it's wrong (i.e. a sin). Maybe we don't all see it that way...

Tap dancing around what's counsel and what's commandment and whether or not something is a sin seems really silly and Pharasaical to me.

When I watch a rated R movie, I know it's a sin. But I do it anyway. Someday when I've got a lot of other things taken care of, I'll maybe address that one, but for now I'm not ready.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by jay santos

My views on grace/works/sin/worthiness/perfection are not always the norm here, but I still know I'm right.

Yes, those things you mention are sins. But then you might be sinning in about ten different ways just as we speak. IMHO, anything we do, say, or think that is not 100% in alignment with what God would do or wants us to do is a sin.

Sinning or not sinning is not black and white. It's a thousand variations of gray. God knows we will sin, nearly constantly. We're not expected to live without sin. We're expected to accept Christ and his grace that overcomes sin. We exercise faith in him, repent of our sins, and attempt to follow him best we can, and continue the process repenting constantly and taking sacrament renewing covenants.

So bottom line is do the best you can, don't beat yourself up but acknowledge when and where you fall short, keep repenting and attempting to follow him, know you are in the covenant of Christ, and be happy that you have salvation if you continue on the path.

No, I get that. I don't think that's exactly the point. It's more what about those things that I could do to be better and I plain and simple choose not to, because it would require changes to my lifestyle that I, and others may deem extreme? Do we just get a pass on that stuff?