OK smart guys, explain this to me.....

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Adam

Ordinances are theater to impress our weak mortal minds. We need rituals because they helps us take esoteric principles seriously.

Baptism is a ritual ordinance. So is confirmation. Neither is literally magical or has any automatic inherent power. The authority requirement is to control the membership (I mean that in a good needed way) so there is a unity of faith.

Salvation, then, depends on being covered by the atonement of Christ. To be in good standing in the Church (which I believe was really founded by John the Baptist and Peter/James/John via Joseph) one needs to submit to the ordinances proscribed by inspiration/revelation. These ordinances lead us to sink more deeply into commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ--they bend our arc towards sanctification. But they do not constitute sanctification.

Sanctification is the process of burning the dross out of our spirits. This literally cleansing of the effects of sin from our soul is accomplished by the intake of the Holy Spirit. This almost never happens during ordinances, but can.

I haste to add that all of this is IMHO and there are quotes from Brigham Young (among others I'm sure) that disagree with me. BY taught that when you are baptized and confirmed your blood is literally changed into the believing covenant blood of Israel--that the ordinances are actually magical in a literal way. I don't agree with that and current apostles don't teach this anymore.

Or a third different explanation could be right, possibly incorporating aspects of both positions.

I view the ordinances as being vital and having an inherent power (magical if you want to say it that way) about them.

The gospel I believe in is faith, repentance, baptism, gift of HG. I don't go much deeper than that, but I believe there is a depth in those doctrines that far surpasses what many consider the deep doctrines of the gospel.

I believe there is a remission of sins through baptism and GoHG, which is a process that starts with faith and repentance. I also believe this is a process which we continually cycle through, with sacrament serving proxy as the ordinances. So it's not that it's done once as an 8 yo and it's done.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I view the ordinances as being vital and having an inherent power (magical if you want to say it that way) about them.

The gospel I believe in is faith, repentance, baptism, gift of HG. I don't go much deeper than that, but I believe there is a depth in those doctrines that far surpasses what many consider the deep doctrines of the gospel.

I believe there is a remission of sins through baptism and GoHG, which is a process that starts with faith and repentance. I also believe this is a process which we continually cycle through, with sacrament serving proxy as the ordinances. So it's not that it's done once as an 8 yo and it's done.

the remission in my mind comes through Faith in the atonement, which we manifest by undergoing the sacraments.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

I love how "you're on the road to apostasy" translates to "get the hell out" to you and Waters.

There's a distinct difference. But you enjoy being a martyr so much you refuse to see that.

What inspires you folks to determine when somebody is on the road to apostacy? Most apostates I know are what I might, in a weak moment, call an asshole. That is a specific term of endearment I frequently use to describe exie and you on occasion. If you both demonstrate assholeitis like many of the apostates I know, am I to assume you are on the road to apostacy?

Adam is a pretentious dick. We all know that. However, there was nothing in his posts in this thread that demonstrated that. He never said whether or not others are wrong in their own conclusions on what the scriptures mean. He stated an opinion but because his conjecture seems different to you than Elder Bednar's conjecture he is on the road to apostacy.

This is my conjecture. He is right. I believe baptism has power, but what matters is your heart and will. It is whether God's will is your will that will dictate the efficacy of your baptism since God has no concept of time, it mattereth not if the baptism happened long before, as we mortals track time, or has yet to happen at all.

I also believe boobs are in.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I also believe boobs are in.

You are in error, kind sir.

Boobs hang out. Belly buttons should be in.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You are in error, kind sir.

Boobs hang out. Belly buttons should be in.

If they're hanging, it really is time for enhancement, isn't it?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

What inspires you folks to determine when somebody is on the road to apostacy? Most apostates I know are what I might, in a weak moment, call an asshole. That is a specific term of endearment I frequently use to describe exie and you on occasion. If you both demonstrate assholeitis like many of the apostates I know, am I to assume you are on the road to apostacy?

Adam is a pretentious dick. We all know that. However, there was nothing in his posts in this thread that demonstrated that. He never said whether or not others are wrong in their own conclusions on what the scriptures mean. He stated an opinion but because his conjecture seems different to you than Elder Bednar's conjecture he is on the road to apostacy.

This is my conjecture. He is right. I believe baptism has power, but what matters is your heart and will. It is whether God's will is your will that will dictate the efficacy of your baptism since God has no concept of time, it mattereth not if the baptism happened long before, as we mortals track time, or has yet to happen at all.

I also believe boobs are in.

Some people just like to pull out the apostacy card. Think about it. If someone was truly on the road to apostacy, do you think they give a crap about someone warning them of it.

To me it is equivalent of someone telling me they got better grades than I did and therefor I should listen to them.

I will admit there are a few things I do think shows arrogance beyond belief. One of them is supposing you are righteous enough to spot someone who is on the road to apostacy from anonymous posts they make. That is why I got mad enough to put Johnny on ignore for a while over on CB for this post.

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=2607425

Seems Johnny thinks he might be an expert on spotting members on the road to apostacy.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Spaz

Interestingly, your description in the second paragraph so nicely fits so many of those posting on this board it's silly.

Except of course, for you, right Spaz? It cracks me up that this has become the phrase you have to utter to justify their being here day after day.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Except of course, for you, right Spaz? It cracks me up that this has become the phrase you have to utter to justify their being here day after day.

Of course not - I don't feel like I "can't just be satisfied with the Gospel being simple," nor do I think I'm guilty of "espouse[ing] it to others as fact".

Have I 'uttered' that particular phrase frequently in the past? I can't recall that I have. I would hope that any other utterances of said phrase were just as much in jest as this one was.


BTW - did I piss you off somewhere that I'm not aware of?

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Adam

The ordinances are important, IMHO, because 1) they are required to be a part of the community, and 2) they are the signature on the line of the contract with God.

I believe the signing precedes the making of the contract in nearly every instance, but it is the signifier nonetheless.

The fact that the ordinances can be done vicariously shows that is it not important to have the literal experience individually. The fact that we try to do it for all the dead shows that it might be a significant signifier of the separate sanctification. Or maybe it is about selfless service and really isn't that important for the dead. I don't have an independent testimony on the subject of the literal individual importance of work for the dead to the dead.

Fair enough. I don't think we're that far off from each other's positions on this, although I wouldn't refer to the ordinances themselves as 'so much theater'...

IMO, without that 'signature' of the ordinance, the personal conversion won't do enough to save you. I'd describe it more like this:

-The pre-baptism hoopla (the talks, the prayers, etc.) are akin to the pre-signing hoopla at a peace-treaty signing (think the Russian doll-dance in 'The Man who Knew too Little').
-The actual baptism ordinance is akin to the actual signing of the peace treaty.


To me, the fact that we do vicarious work in the temples is proof of the importance of the ordinances themselves. That said, I agree that there may be additional purposes behind the work, and that the work may not be as necessary as it appears on the surface.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Spaz

Of course not - I don't feel like I "can't just be satisfied with the Gospel being simple," nor do I think I'm guilty of "espouse[ing] it to others as fact".

Have I 'uttered' that particular phrase frequently in the past? I can't recall that I have. I would hope that any other utterances of said phrase were just as much in jest as this one was.


BTW - did I piss you off somewhere that I'm not aware of?

It's not just you, it's anyone who feels the need to insert the "sounds like everyone (but me) on cougarguard" qualifier when they post. It's nothing personal, just something that bugs me. I figure most folks who've spent more than a day perusing this site know what they're in for when they read it. Therefore, I have to assume that they keep returning because there's something about this place that they really like.