Ceding Europe to the securalists - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Levin · 02-14-2010, 01:54 AM

Wow, a major realignment of missionary resources away from Europe to the Americas and Africa. Many European missions essentially being shut down through merger with others. Huge geographic areas now covered by one mission.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/article...ven-areas.html

At least the Christian world has Pope Benedict willing to fight for Europe's spiritual salvation.

MikeWaters · 02-14-2010, 02:55 PM

Very interesting. I'll have more comments when my home internet gets fixed.

MikeWaters · 02-14-2010, 06:18 PM

1. The missionaries are harvesters, first and foremost. Where the wheat is not white and ready to harvest, they ought to go where it is.

2. This is not only pulling back in Europe, it's also pulling back in parts of the USA.

3. Don't forget that missions are also about preparing the next generation of church leadership. I would not be surprised to find that the activity of RMs from European missions is less than the activity of RMs where baptisms are more easily found. Many of the mission horror stories I've heard took place in Europe. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. Let's face it, no success is very hard to deal with, even for the most disciplined and devout.

4. I suspect that the church leadership looked at discouraging growth numbers for the church as a whole, and that these changes are partly a result of that. Where is the church growing? Among the poor, uneducated, and dispossessed. Actually this sounds a lot like the original LDS European immigrants. The message was "join the Saints in America." And now in 2010 the message to the 3rd world is the same: "Join the Saints." And there will be physical blessings as well as spiritual blessings.

Exciting times. Church is one the move and reinventing itself.

Levin · 02-14-2010, 07:49 PM

It's an interesting contrast to Benedict's approach, which has been to redouble efforts in Europe and try to push back against the tide of secularism, faithlessness, and materialism.

The Church is being nothing if not realistic.

Sad for future missionaries, though -- they are that much less likely to have the opportunity to serve in Europe. I served there, in the lowest baptising mission in the church then and now, and I wouldn't have traded missions with anybody. I highly doubt your baseless conjecture that more missionaries from Europe go inactive than missionaries who served in missions with higher success rates. The weak will leave no matter what; but for the others, the high heat of persistent rejection only turns raw ore into steel. Plus, it puts success in perspective and redefines the term.

I thought Spain losing four missions, Italy three (or something like that) was shocking. A huge contraction. And now Austria, much of Germany, Switzerland, etc. all a part of a single Alpine Mission? Wow. The stone being cut out of the mountain certainly isn't from the Matterhorn! More like from the Andes.

MikeWaters · 02-14-2010, 08:46 PM

It's not sad for future missionaries. It's wonderful for future missionaries. They won't be wasting their time.

I suppose you feel that your muscles were strengthened by pushing against the immovable rock. Good for you.

This also means that less missionaries will be doing "the European Tour." Hanging out for two years taking in the language, culture, and museums.

I have personally witnessed the aftereffects of the church pulling out of areas I served. I saw the chapel that was dedicated while I was in an area (my last day in the area actually--and a kind of capstone to my mission) laying abandoned in weeds just a few years later.

The church is not "destined" for anything. There is no destiny, there is no fate. There is only work and being smart about it. The days of expecting the gospel to magically spread are over. Winter is coming. Bring in the last sheaves before the freeze arrives.

Levin · 02-15-2010, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The church is not "destined" for anything. There is no destiny, there is no fate. There is only work and being smart about it. The days of expecting the gospel to magically spread are over. Winter is coming. Bring in the last sheaves before the freeze arrives.

This sentiment would have depressed the hell out of me a while back; too much work to do, too many forces working against the membership. But now I agree with it, and almost appreciate the personal responsibility it requires.

There really is only one destiny -- Christ's return. How large the group is here to greet him is not predestined.

MikeWaters · 02-15-2010, 02:02 PM

A little more discussion about this.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14392565?source=most_viewed

Archaea · 02-15-2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

A little more discussion about this.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14392565?source=most_viewed

A while back my mission was dissolved, but then it reappeared a few years later. So I'm not certain what any of it means, if anything.

As Mike says, no destiny other than work is on the horizon for the Church and its members.

SeattleUte · 02-23-2010, 03:51 PM

Waters is europhobic.

02-14-2010, 01:54 AM	#1
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	Ceding Europe to the securalists Wow, a major realignment of missionary resources away from Europe to the Americas and Africa. Many European missions essentially being shut down through merger with others. Huge geographic areas now covered by one mission. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/article...ven-areas.html At least the Christian world has Pope Benedict willing to fight for Europe's spiritual salvation. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

02-14-2010, 07:49 PM	#4
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	It's an interesting contrast to Benedict's approach, which has been to redouble efforts in Europe and try to push back against the tide of secularism, faithlessness, and materialism. The Church is being nothing if not realistic. Sad for future missionaries, though -- they are that much less likely to have the opportunity to serve in Europe. I served there, in the lowest baptising mission in the church then and now, and I wouldn't have traded missions with anybody. I highly doubt your baseless conjecture that more missionaries from Europe go inactive than missionaries who served in missions with higher success rates. The weak will leave no matter what; but for the others, the high heat of persistent rejection only turns raw ore into steel. Plus, it puts success in perspective and redefines the term. I thought Spain losing four missions, Italy three (or something like that) was shocking. A huge contraction. And now Austria, much of Germany, Switzerland, etc. all a part of a single Alpine Mission? Wow. The stone being cut out of the mountain certainly isn't from the Matterhorn! More like from the Andes. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

02-23-2010, 03:51 PM	#9
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	Waters is europhobic. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

02-14-2010, 02:55 PM	#2
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Very interesting. I'll have more comments when my home internet gets fixed.

02-14-2010, 06:18 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	1. The missionaries are harvesters, first and foremost. Where the wheat is not white and ready to harvest, they ought to go where it is. 2. This is not only pulling back in Europe, it's also pulling back in parts of the USA. 3. Don't forget that missions are also about preparing the next generation of church leadership. I would not be surprised to find that the activity of RMs from European missions is less than the activity of RMs where baptisms are more easily found. Many of the mission horror stories I've heard took place in Europe. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. Let's face it, no success is very hard to deal with, even for the most disciplined and devout. 4. I suspect that the church leadership looked at discouraging growth numbers for the church as a whole, and that these changes are partly a result of that. Where is the church growing? Among the poor, uneducated, and dispossessed. Actually this sounds a lot like the original LDS European immigrants. The message was "join the Saints in America." And now in 2010 the message to the 3rd world is the same: "Join the Saints." And there will be physical blessings as well as spiritual blessings. Exciting times. Church is one the move and reinventing itself.

02-14-2010, 08:46 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	It's not sad for future missionaries. It's wonderful for future missionaries. They won't be wasting their time. I suppose you feel that your muscles were strengthened by pushing against the immovable rock. Good for you. This also means that less missionaries will be doing "the European Tour." Hanging out for two years taking in the language, culture, and museums. I have personally witnessed the aftereffects of the church pulling out of areas I served. I saw the chapel that was dedicated while I was in an area (my last day in the area actually--and a kind of capstone to my mission) laying abandoned in weeds just a few years later. The church is not "destined" for anything. There is no destiny, there is no fate. There is only work and being smart about it. The days of expecting the gospel to magically spread are over. Winter is coming. Bring in the last sheaves before the freeze arrives.

02-15-2010, 02:02 PM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	A little more discussion about this. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14392565?source=most_viewed