Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[MikeWaters]

A strong argument that the timing of the work for the dead is not important is the church's agreement to not baptize, by proxy, deceased Jews without permission.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

A strong argument that the timing of the work for the dead is not important is the church's agreement to not baptize, by proxy, deceased Jews without permission.

Disagree. You could just as easily argue that a PR nightmare that would tarnish the church's image and result in the timing for baptisms being delayed even longer.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I'll admit, it's a little weak--I'm doing this in between patients on a semi-slow day. But it captures the essence of the point, which is:

The prophets and scriptures are attempting to describe something which is fundamentally indescribable, IMO. We're just not capable of understanding the workings of God (Paul would agree with me on this). So instead we get symbolism, allegory, parables, etc to relate to us what is helpful to bring each of us, individually, to God. I'm not sure that the requirement that every person who has ever lived on any remote portion of this planet be baptized by an ordained priest, elder, or high priest of the LDS church is any more literal than the Earth being created in six days. Maybe I'm wrong, but like I said, I find it hard to believe that Mother Teresa is trapped until someone puts her name on a card and baptizes her (something your literal interpretation of the prophets' teachings would require). In the end, it doesn't really matter for me and my life.

Nonsense.

The requirement of baptism is described in all the standard works of the church, including extensive treatment in the Book of Mormon. It's been reiterated by prophets for decades going back to Joseph Smith. It's included in the 4th Article of Faith as the first ordinance of the gospel. Even Jesus Christ himself, God of the Universe, had to humble himself and submit to being baptized. The church has spent countless millions of dollars and thousands of man hours on efforts to make this ordinance available to generations of deceased ancestors. This is no fringe doctrine about how many man-years it took to form the earth; we're talking about a fundamental doctrine of the gospel of Christ.

And we discard all this why? Because "we're not capable of understanding the works of God." In that case, why believe anything the scriptures or the prophets of God say at all? If we are so incapable of understanding this basic ordinance, perhaps the sealing power is not necessary to bind families together? Perhaps the priesthood is not really necessary to govern the church. In fact, perhaps even the sacrifice of Jesus Christ himself was actually unnecessary. Who knows? Not us ... we are not capable of understanding, right?

Sorry, ER, but this line of thinking doesn't just defy revelation, it's defies logic. A rational being would have a much harder time coming to terms with that kind of cognitive dissonance, then to accept that Mother Teresa might have to wait a few years to receive this ordinance before accepting her (apparently pre-ordained, according to you) eternal crown.

Denying the necessity of baptism is a denial of the faith itself.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

Disagree. You could just as easily argue that a PR nightmare that would tarnish the church's image and result in the timing for baptisms being delayed even longer.

As in fewer Jews joining the church. Funny.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

As in fewer Jews joining the church. Funny.

You know, we've been preaching to lots of people other than jews for quite some time now. About 2000 years or so.

Come on, you should know better than to dismiss the PR factor as irrelevant.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

You know, we've been preaching to lots of people other than jews for quite some time now. About 2000 years or so.

Come on, you should know better than to dismiss the PR factor as irrelevant.

I don't think you trade souls for PR. So I have to the conclusion that they weren't really trading anything all that important.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

And we discard all this why? Because "we're not capable of understanding the works of God." In that case, why believe anything the scriptures or the prophets of God say at all?

Because believing and accepting these doctrines bring us closer to God and gives us a valuable functional moral framework.

Sort of like a scientist that accepts the idea that the atom is made of a nucleus of tiny positively and neutrally charged balls with various orbits of negatively charged nearly massless particles. Accepting the model allows for further progress, but no one would be so foolish as to assume that the model represents the complete picture.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Discredit him in the sense that he's not a traditional orthodox Mormon? Or is there something juicier?

The former I believe. Either way Adam checked out.

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Either way, seems kind of weak on Rocky's part. Why the animosity anyway?

That's an excellent question. Only Rocky's therapist knows for sure.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Because believing and accepting these doctrines bring us closer to God and gives us a valuable functional moral framework.

How can I have faith in a framework that I not only do not understand, but may be completely false?

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Sort of like a scientist that accepts the idea that the atom is made of a nucleus of tiny positively and neutrally charged balls with various orbits of negatively charged nearly massless particles. Accepting the model allows for further progress, but no one would be so foolish as to assume that the model represents the complete picture.

A better analogy would be assuming that because someone is a really good person, that the laws of gravity would suddenly cease to apply.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

How can I have faith in a framework that I not only do not understand, but may be completely false?



A better analogy would be assuming that because someone is a really good person, that the laws of gravity would suddenly cease to apply.

Let me pull a Tex on you...
http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=209

It's not completely false. It's true for all our intents and purposes. I just don't think it represents the complete picture.

To say that water molecules are made up of a mickey-mouse shaped arrangement of two hydrogen "balls" and an oxygen "ball" is true in one sense, but certainly doesn't capture all of reality. Yet following that model will get you pretty far.

In the end, this is sort of a stupid argument we're not going to resolve. So, I'll go ahead and grant that Mother Teresa is in the curved area of the big ball of the spirit world with the prison bars over it that I drew (completely accurately and faithfully) on my mission.