Topics you never hear at Church

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

That's just plain silly. Pornography is just the boogey-man of the moment in the Church, just like masturbation was the boogey-man when we were all missionaries. Church leaders should be more concerned with the way materialism has infected the Church or with the way that right-wing conservatism has poisoned their congregations. If I had to choose whether my son viewed pornography or whether he became like Johnny Lingo, I'd choose pornography every time.

If I could guarantee for my son that the extent of the pornography would be casual flirtations with it, I'd agree with you. But for x % of those that view pornography, they develop a very difficult addiction. And y % of those never recover from it, it destroys their self esteem and all relationships with loved ones.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Needless to say, we are trying to do a little better with our kids.

This is a matter that Mr. Gordon and I are trying to sort out as well. We are both from families that never EVER discussed sex.

We are from churches that discussed sex only with the terms fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and pornography.

Of my friends from church, I know a couple that physically could not consummate their marriage on their wedding night (after years of being told the evils of sex), and I know several couples that divorced after a couple of years of asexual marriages.

Anyway, this is not my point. My point is, for those of you with younger kids, there is a book called It's So Amazing that has some great illustrations you can use with your kids. Obviously this is not a book your kids read on their own. We have this one. My son LOVES it.

There is a book for older kids called It's Perfectly Normal. I'm a little more hesitant on this one because it offers guidelines on homosexuality, birth control, etc.

These two are considered the standard in birds and the bees books, but are written without any particular moral or spiritual framework.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Anyway, this is not my point. My point is, for those of you with younger kids, there is a book called It's So Amazing that has some great illustrations you can use with your kids. Obviously this is not a book your kids read on their own. We have this one. My son LOVES it.

There is a book for older kids called It's Perfectly Normal. I'm a little more hesitant on this one because it offers guidelines on homosexuality, birth control, etc.

These two are considered the standard in birds and the bees books, but are written without any particular moral or spiritual framework.

Excellent advice. We have use this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Did-Come...e=UTF8&s=books

with our kids and it is great. Highly recommended.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

...

And as to Indy's comment, I agree that pornography is a problem for many. But I argue that it's also a symptom of a much more complex male-female dynamic in the Church and that simply giving talks that condemn it as though it were a problem that exists in a vacuum, or lazily suggesting it is simply the result of an ill-defined "smutty world," won't help much in the aggregate.

In some sense I see the kind of easy thoughtlessness in the usual approach to condemning pornography that I see in the monthly "Do your home teaching" lecture. At some point, Church leaders should have learned that:

A. Lecturing to people and trying to make them feel guilty isn't working, hasn't worked and won't work (at least, not on this issue and not in the aggregate). In fact, it's demoralizing for many and can reinforce an assumption of all-talk and no-action.

and

B. There is a deeper difficulty that isn't being understood, much less addressed.

and

C. Most everyone seems to recognize these things, but no one's doing anything about them so the implication is that no one, including leaders, either cares or expects to make a difference.

and

D. This all fits nicely into the apocalyptic, "the world is ending and we can't do anything to improve things so why try" rhetoric that gets bandied about.

I see something of what socio-psychologists call a "bystander effect." Lots of people are standing around and shouting "Oh no! Oh no! Someone do something! Someone needs to help! Please sir, stop dying!" while the guy having the coronary dies, on the street, surrounded by people.

BTW, the fireside I'm giving on sexuality and the media is scheduled for three weeks for Sunday.

I believe there needs to be much more emphasis on the rich emotional and spiritual blessings that come from obeying the Law of Chastity, instead of a focus on all the possible physical and social downsides of disobeying - STDs, out of wedlock children, divorce, and so forth. How it makes it easier to have more intimacy (not just physical intimacy) in your marriage relationship because it enhances high levels of trust and "safety", things like that.

I'm a big fan of the book "Bonds that Make Us Free" by Terry Warner (an [emeritus?] BYU philosophy professor). I think it does an excellent job of setting the foundation for such an understanding.

minn_stat

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Excellent advice. We have use this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Did-Come...e=UTF8&s=books

with our kids and it is great. Highly recommended.

Do you think it's better to use a secular work or a spiritual one?

This is something I wonder about, but as I have no background in child psychology, etc., I really have no idea which is better.

We've basically decided to take a secular work and supplement it with our own spiritual/religious material.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by marsupial

Frank, matter-of-fact answers to their sincere questions is a great start. Youth leaders should be doing the same. However, in my experience they are not. Two examples: I sat through a lesson on chastity with the Beehives given by an obviously uncomfortable leader in her 50s. She spent the whole lesson talking about The Lord of the Rings and the special "ring" (a girl's virtue) that she must keep sacred. It was comical, for sure. The only thing the girls probably got out of it was a lost desire to read or watch The Lord of the Rings.

A young woman was sitting in on a stake YW meeting. We were going over calendar items and got into stake dances, morality, etc. The YW rose her hand and asked one of the leaders quite sincerely, "I hear the term heavy petting a lot but I don't know what it means." The leader was quite ruffled by this question and very indignantly replied, "You can look that up in your 'For the Strength of Youth pamphlet.'"

C'mon, how hard would it have been for her to simply say, "touching private parts" and then move on?

These are some great points.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Excellent advice. We have use this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Did-Come...e=UTF8&s=books

with our kids and it is great. Highly recommended.

So, are you saying that I was wrong when I told my kids to watch the neighbor's dogs?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

We've basically decided to take a secular work and supplement it with our own spiritual/religious material.

That's what we have done. The book that I linked is simply a great way to introduce the birds and the bees to young kids. Once you have the basics established, it is easier to build on that foundation as opportunties for discussion arise.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

I believe there needs to be much more emphasis on the rich emotional and spiritual blessings that come from obeying the Law of Chastity, instead of a focus on all the possible physical and social downsides of disobeying - STDs, out of wedlock children, divorce, and so forth. How it makes it easier to have more intimacy ...
minn_stat

The only problem I have with this approach is that it's not uncommon for women from conservative religious backgrounds to struggle with sexuality, even within the context of marriage.

so, if you spend ten years telling these adolescents, "don't worry it'll be better for everyone in the long run," and then they hold off until marriage only to find a life full of sexual dysfunction...well, I don't see how we've done anyone any favors.

But yes, churches certainly need to lessen the emphasis on the negatives. That approach is not helping matters.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

These are some great points.

Marsupial:

Great point, but isn't that definition incorrect?

Isn't heavy petting placing too much pressure? Sorry for the lame joke. However, isn't the heavy part meaning under the clothing and light petting over the clothing? It's been a long time since I've heard those terms but that's what I remember.

OTH, in my 13 year old class, we speak clinically without reservation. For example, when it said Joseph knew not Mary until Jesus was born. I pulled out my trusty NRSV and showed it meant not having sex.

In reality, I'm not certain what the method of teaching should be.

Honesty and openess should be available, but not to the point of ludeness and crudeness where we resort to the Victorian backhouse brothels.

Is the tendency to giggle every time somebody in the congregation a sign of immaturity?

Will our congregation necessarily be happier or will we simply exchange different unhappiness?

I do wish the Church would engage its sociologists to develop a plan for altering our culture to a more complete, holistic, approach to sexuality. I suspect it will not happen in our lives, as given the many concerns taken on by male business leaders, healthy marriages doesn't seem to be a primary concern. Healthy IMAGES of marriage is their primary concern.