Abraham/Isaac sacrifice

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I want to know why God killed Onan, but not my friend. Has God become more relaxed with age?

1 Nephi 15:8

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Why be so deliberately obtuse? Just because God is capable of doing or commanding certain things to happen doesn't mean that precedent has been set for us to justifiably follow suit.

Anyone think the conception of Christ has given us the green light to impregnate betrothed virgins?

Using mentally ill people as counterexamples is stupid. Some mentally ill people think God tells them to eat their own feces, or to run as a presidential candidate for Democratic Party.

Yes. The only point I would make is that religion can be a force both for incredible good and incredible evil. The same stories can be used to motivate humility and patience, or suppression, intolerance, and suffering. And no subset of scripture has been hijacked more than the pentateuch. I am not in Sooner's camp saying that these stories are worthless, but I certainly agree that they are powerful and controversial. Genocide, stoning, human sacrifice, slavery, polygamy, .... It's all there.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

As far as the "a loving God wouldn't toy with Abraham and have him kill his son" line of reasoning goes....

I'm amused by how mortals with limited knowledge and understanding can sit in judgement of what God would or wouldn't do in all situations because it doesn't reconcile with their own biases and ignorance.

I think God is perfectly capable and justified being behind things like Abraham/Isaac, Noah, Job, the circumstances of Christ's birth, destruction of the wicked at the Second Coming, etc. and it's not due to being petty, capricious, etc. etc. etc.

It's because God knows the end from the beginning and has a perfect understanding of all laws and principles that he governs by and subjects Himself to and the appropriate hierarchy of which laws and principles supercede others.

It's extreme hubris to think we have a better grasp on what God is or isn't capable of or justified in doing than He does.


P.S. SoonerCoug has some serious issues with his sexual preoccupations.

Agree with some of your points but not your overall theme.

Agree that we don't tell God how he is, we humble ourselves to him and try to understand what his character is through scriptures, personal revelation, etc.

However, scriptures and other prophetic teachings can appear to be in conflict with each other. There can be a broad interpretation of the character of God. My feeling of the basic character of God that comes through my interpretation of scripture combined with personal experience forms a foundation for me to interpret all new pieces of information. I can believe he is a punishing God--Tex and Lingo believe this. Or I can believe he is a merciful God--I believe this. Or I can believe he's sometimes either or and seems to change illogically according to human brain which may be very logically looking at it from a higher level--you seem to believe this. Any of these positions can be plausibly argued with scripture and prophetic teaching. There also are inconsistencies and hard stuff to explain for all three positions.

It's not fair to say that your position is right and anyone who looks at it differently is somehow forcing God to fit in their paradigm.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I can believe he is a punishing God--Tex and Lingo believe this. Or I can believe he is a merciful God--I believe this. Or I can believe he's sometimes either or and seems to change illogically according to human brain which may be very logically looking at it from a higher level--you seem to believe this. Any of these positions can be plausibly argued with scripture and prophetic teaching. There also are inconsistencies and hard stuff to explain for all three positions.

God couldn't be a punishing God. Otherwise he would have punished you by now for constantly misrepresenting me.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Agree with some of your points but not your overall theme.

Agree that we don't tell God how he is, we humble ourselves to him and try to understand what his character is through scriptures, personal revelation, etc.

However, scriptures and other prophetic teachings can appear to be in conflict with each other. There can be a broad interpretation of the character of God. My feeling of the basic character of God that comes through my interpretation of scripture combined with personal experience forms a foundation for me to interpret all new pieces of information. I can believe he is a punishing God--Tex and Lingo believe this. Or I can believe he is a merciful God--I believe this. Or I can believe he's sometimes either or and seems to change illogically according to human brain which may be very logically looking at it from a higher level--you seem to believe this. Any of these positions can be plausibly argued with scripture and prophetic teaching. There also are inconsistencies and hard stuff to explain for all three positions.

It's not fair to say that your position is right and anyone who looks at it differently is somehow forcing God to fit in their paradigm.

I think a major complicating factor is simply that scripture has inadequately and/or inaccurately recorded a lot of these events. You can round up the usual suspects for why this has happened.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I think a major complicating factor is simply that scripture has inadequately and/or inaccurately recorded a lot of these events. You can round up the usual suspects for why this has happened.

In this we are in agreement. Scripture in these events has been massaged, and it is difficult to tell which part is midrash and which part is authentic and what has been omitted.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

All the people who are willing to kill their baby if they believed God told them to do so should be locked up.

Unfortunately a high percentage of Mormons fall into this group--and they would kill their baby not just for God's voice from on high but would lower the knife on instructions from a man wearing a white shirt and tie with an office on South Temple.

This rightly scares our non-Mormon neighbors to a great extent. How would you like to live in the midst of a huge population of (name your random cult) who believed that God spoke via their leader and who, as Tex here clearly states, believe God is capable of telling his followers via the leader to kill innocent believers and/or nonbelievers with no justification. And not just that God is capable, but that all adherents have an obligation to keep their minds open, as Tex states, to the possibility of carrying out just such an attack at any time.

And we wonder why people fear us. Thank you Tex for providing Exhibit A.

The amount of intellectual disingenuity in this post is staggering.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

All the people who are willing to kill their baby if they believed God told them to do so should be locked up.

To my point ... I wonder why any (sane) person is significantly bothered by the Abraham/Isaac story, on a personal level. Abraham was one of the greatest prophets in the history of the world, revered by 3 great religions alike, the father of billions, a man who has received his exaltation.

Does anyone here seriously believe God might ask them to sacrifice what he did? Some of you can barely make it to 3 hours of church.

Originally Posted by Adam

Unfortunately a high percentage of Mormons fall into this group--and they would kill their baby not just for God's voice from on high but would lower the knife on instructions from a man wearing a white shirt and tie with an office on South Temple.

I'd like to see some hard stats supporting your "high percentage" thesis.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

Abraham was willing to kill his son. That bothers all thinking people. Seriously, every thinking person is uncomfortable with this fact to some degree. If you are not troubled by this fact, you aren't thinking about it.

It is a troubling thought, indeed. But I don't lay awake at night worrying that God will ask me to do the same. I am no Abraham, and neither are you.

I think a "high percentage" of Mormons agree.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

Abraham was willing to kill his son. That bothers all thinking people. Seriously, every thinking person is uncomfortable with this fact to some degree. If you are not troubled by this fact, you aren't thinking about it.

Abraham knew God intimately, on a personal level that you nor I will ever attain in mortality. Abraham was willing to obey God. The Messianic symbolism of the sacrifice of Isaac is obvious.

If we thought that

1. God might actually ask us to do the same thing

and

2. God wouldn't have an angel hold up the proceedings in the nick of time

Then it probably should disturb us. However, no one in their right mind would ever expect the above to happen, so to be that disturbed about the story indicates

1. A fundamental misunderstanding about the Abraham/Isaac story
2. A fundamental misunderstanding of what God requires of us
3. Paranoia and/or obtuse demagoguery.