Topics you never hear at Church

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Marsupial:

Great point, but isn't that definition incorrect?

Isn't heavy petting placing too much pressure? Sorry for the lame joke. However, isn't the heavy part meaning under the clothing and light petting over the clothing? It's been a long time since I've heard those terms but that's what I remember.

Yes, heavy is under the clothing. Light would then be over the clothing, but essentially petting is the touching of private parts. My point was that the question didn't require a lengthy or complicated answer and it certainly shouldn't have been shunned as it was.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by marsupial

Yes, heavy is under the clothing. Light would then be over the clothing, but essentially petting is the touching of private parts. My point was that the question didn't require a lengthy or complicated answer and it certainly shouldn't have been shunned as it was.

Questions shouldn't be shunned. And when the questions tend to get sensitive, then I resort to highly clinical language.

Petting is the palpating of certain erogenous zones (usually the genitalia and mammory glands for religious purposes but not for practical purposes) on a lover's body, designed to arouse erogenous sensations and responses. A demonstration is not necessary.

To which I usually receive the "huh" response.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

I believe there needs to be much more emphasis on the rich emotional and spiritual blessings that come from obeying the Law of Chastity, instead of a focus on all the possible physical and social downsides of disobeying - STDs, out of wedlock children, divorce, and so forth. How it makes it easier to have more intimacy (not just physical intimacy) in your marriage relationship because it enhances high levels of trust and "safety", things like that.

I'm a big fan of the book "Bonds that Make Us Free" by Terry Warner (an [emeritus?] BYU philosophy professor). I think it does an excellent job of setting the foundation for such an understanding.

minn_stat

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

The only problem I have with this approach is that it's not uncommon for women from conservative religious backgrounds to struggle with sexuality, even within the context of marriage.

so, if you spend ten years telling these adolescents, "don't worry it'll be better for everyone in the long run," and then they hold off until marriage only to find a life full of sexual dysfunction...well, I don't see how we've done anyone any favors.

But yes, churches certainly need to lessen the emphasis on the negatives. That approach is not helping matters.

Let me clarify a bit. I'm definitely a bit more of a "Sermon on the Mount" sort of believer than a "Ten Commandments" sort. I find too much emphasis on what you can't *do* to function sort of similar to the way the Law of Moses did for the Jews. Let's focus more on what we can *be*, not what we can't *do*. So let's be more open, honest (candid), forgiving, etc. The gospel is simply a blueprint that provides the knowledge of how to be that way, and sexuality is a part of of that knowledge. Without connecting all the dots, I believe misusing it makes us less open, honest, forgiving, etc. Sorry I don't go in to more detail, but hopefully, I've given a fairly clear, if brief, picture of my viewpoint.

I'm not dismissing many of the other good points that other posters have made, just adding a piece I feel no one has touched on.

In ten or fifteen years, we'll see how my philosophy worked on my kids...

minn_stat

[RockyBalboa]

Pornography has destroyed MANY marriages and just not in the church. The problem with it, is it doens't just destroy the marriage,,,,but it leads to even worse things eventually.

There is nothing that comes from it. Interestingly enough, the number of women who view pornography is rising dramatically.

To say it isn't a serious issue or shouldn't be taken on as a serious one is stubbornly naive.

When it comes to sexual lessons in the church and how things should be taught I could go on forever in this regard.

My first Bishop in Arizona was great. Very direct and in your face,,,,(I know, I know....insert joke here). Once a month sometimes more he'd have the Priesthood and R.S. together during the 3 hour block. I vividly remember him telling the parents this line...."Moms and Dads....if your child is sitting in my office asking me about Masturbation, Sexual Intercourse, what it is, whether it's bad or not....then you as a parent are failing miserably....it happens too often. Being afraid of broaching the subject with your kid will bring condemnation on you. If your kid is involved in a Rave and you don't know what that is,,,,the failure is on your head." He said a few other things, but suffice it to say I felt like giving him a standing ovation. Of course you had the typical parents who got all offended, but that is their problem.

In my opinion it is important to be open and direct with your kids and tell them ALL about the birds and the bees, and then to lay down expectations. How and why some parents are afraid to broach the subject is really beyond me. If they want their kid to grow up dysfunctional then by all means treat the subject like the plauge....

The parents in the church who shelter their children when it comes to the topic of sex are just wrong. It is right to teach that one should abstain til marriage but the level of what is and isn't taught is downright shameful.

2 Examples:

My first wife......she was raised her entire life by her mother to believe that even in a marriage that Oral Sex is evil and wrong because that's what the Church teaches, even though the Church clearly doesn't teach that. I'm surprised how many in our culture truly do not believe that once you get married, what you do sexually is between you and your wife and the only limits you have are the ones you set on yourselves. You can imagination my incredulous reaction at this when my ex told me about this. It had been ingrained her that even though she wasn't doing anything bad,,,,,that she was doing something bad.

My last girlfriend.....well okay some background here....as a single guy in my 30's when you make out with someone you can tell rather quickly whether they're a virgin or not. With her I could not tell. One time I finally asked her and her response was unbelievable. She said..."I don't know". At first I thought "She's just embarrassed and doesn't want to talk about it",,,but it soon became apparent...that she really didn't know...and that blew my mind. (no pun intended). I had to actually spell it out for her......."Did he put his penis into your vagina?" She broke down and went on and on about how disapointed her father is in her. I felt awful for her. She had been raised her entire life to believe that sex is evil.

Come to find out that this 39 year old woman from Brazil was raised with a Nazi like view of sex by her parents. That to even THINK about it is evil. When she was 22 and kissed her first boy she hid from her parents for a week because she thought she was pregnant. She finally told her mom,,,her mom just laughed and told her not to worry,,,while her Dad was angered that she would kiss a boy and refused to speak with her for 2 weeks saying she'd sinned against God.

Now granted those are 2 extreme examples, but growing up in the LDS Culture and in my dating life I've come across dozens of women who've been raised with bizarre lessons or even no lessons about the birds and the bees and otherwise it's been ingrained in them that Sex is bad and sex is evil....thus when they do get married the communication issue between them and their husband gets frosty and bad.

The way sex is taught or not taught for lack of a better term in the LDS Culture is embarrassing and ruins communication lines, destroys self esteem, and makes people feel like garbage. It shouldn't be treated like such a taboo and evil subject, but it is and so you get all these people growing up with very bizarre views and attitudes towards it.

[Surfah]

While it will be years before I introduce my own children to the birds and the bees I can speak from the young single adult perspective and I agree Sister Gordon's comments regarding some of her friends who struggled with intimacy in marriage after having the evils of physical intimacy pounded into them their entire lives.

I too have witnessed friends' marriages dissolve because of intimacy problems. I know of one girl who was so ashamed of consumating the marriage that afterwards she locked herself in the hotel bathroom the rest of the night. In her mind she could not disassociate what she had just done with what she had been taught her whole life to be evil. Another couple I know had such a poor experience their first time that the wife did not want to do it again, but in an effort to please her husband, set a time once a week when they would have sex.

Another side of this topic that has yet to be discussed is the stigma that a transgressor of the law of chastity carries. The attitude and instruction of sex in the Church creates this in my honest opinion. Young women are taught to remain virtuous and to save themselves for someone who has done the same for them. I'll admit a less than valiant period in my life that I revealed once to a girl I was dating seriously who basically terminated the relationship because I hadn't been as valiant as she had.

[RockyBalboa]

What's equally funny...even at this stage in my life, when I meet with a Bishop....in my dating life they still tell me the same things they tell the 16 year old....

When you date go on a double date.

Never be alone in the same room.

etc..etc..etc...... I just smile and let the bishop say his piece, cause they don't have a clue what it's like to be single, alone, in your 30's and LDS.

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Many North American Mormons are suffering from a case of hyper-Victorianism. The Victorians attacked us over our sexual deviance (polygamy) and in our defeat we compulsively serve the ideologies of those who defeated us. Victorianism has influenced the larger American culture (the 1950s stereotypes are rife with it and so is the Mars/Venus material), but it is more acute with Mormons because we have been bludgeoned. This is what I mean by Uncle Tom-ism.

This is really interesting, SIEQ. I had read before about the Victorian ideal of a woman as angel/whore, but never connected it with the Mormon culture is any way.

Good discussion, and while I believe that church leaders and teachers should give honest answers to youth questions about sex, it's ultimately up to the parents to start an honest dialogue with their kids at the appropriate ages. I'm another one whose parents never mentioned sex (except once as a teenager, when my mom asked me out of panic if I had ever had sex).
I think that if the youth have the impression that sex is a taboo subject at home, they might be less likely to want to ask questions about it in church.

And personally, I would want my childrens knowledge of sex to come from me, and not from misinformed peers.

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by Archaea

In reality, I'm not certain what the method of teaching should be.

Honesty and openess should be available, but not to the point of ludeness and crudeness where we resort to the Victorian backhouse brothels.

I think sexuality can be addressed at appropriate times to appropriate audiences in the church without lewdness or crudeness. While it may not be appropriate for general conference, lessons in RS/EQ could deal with the importance of cultivating sexual intimacy in marriage. In that lesson, pornography, withholding of sex, etc., could be brought up as examples of things husbands and wives do to compromise that intimate bond.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by marsupial

I think sexuality can be addressed at appropriate times to appropriate audiences in the church without lewdness or crudeness. While it may not be appropriate for general conference, lessons in RS/EQ could deal with the importance of cultivating sexual intimacy in marriage. In that lesson, pornography, withholding of sex, etc., could be brought up as examples of things husbands and wives do to compromise that intimate bond.

I'll forward your comments to Sis. Garcia.

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'll forward your comments to Sis. Garcia.

Too bad Farrah and I will miss out on that lesson... We'll be too busy coloring pictures of the temple in Primary.