concerns people may have about the church....

[All-American]

Re: Mark Hoffman--

Catholics teach that the pope is infallible, but they don't believe it.

Mormons teach that the Prophet is fallible, but they don't believe it.

[fuegote]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Because it's an ocean and then some away from the Middle East.

That's funny. So the arc floated...stayed right about the same place...and then went back down in the same place

[Indy Coug]

In the days of Peleg, the earth divided.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

This one doesn't bother me a bit Fus. I think the "problem" comes from our upbringing. We grow up thinking of our Prophets specifically and leadership in general as infallible. As we come to realize that they are imperfect men doing their best to fulfill their call we can allow for odd events like the Hoffman collections.

this is why i think its actually kind of a big deal....

we claim we have living prophets today. we sustain them as prophets, seers, and revelators. we bear witness they are special witnesses of christ, that however they came to the knowledge, they have knowledge of christs resurrection. we claim the spirit leads, guides, and allows us to discern what is right and what is wrong. we see these men as falliable but almost the best of the best, saved, annointed and brought forth in these latter days in preparation of the world for the second coming of the lord....

yet these men dont feel something wasnt right about the situation being presented to them?

would moses be duped? what about abraham? what about job, paul, peter, james or john? our leaders today are of no lesser spiritual significance than these men and quite possibly will have more historical significance as we prepare for the second coming.

i think members who look at this situation can think one of three things....

a. they arent really prophets.
b. they didnt listen to the spirit.
c. the spirit was absent for some reason.

any other possibilites are welcome to be added.

[fuegote]

Moses did smite the rock and wasn't allowed in the promised land.
Abraham made mistakes
Joshua didn't head the counsil of the Lord
Peter denied Christ three times...

we don't know enough about Job, but I dare say, they are still men and make mistakes.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

yet these men dont feel something wasnt right about the situation being presented to them?

I'm not sure that's true. I really have no clue what they were feeling, but I suspect that they wanted to have the documents so that they could figure out what in the world was actually going on. They may well have felt that something weird was going on. The fact that they purchased them doesn't mean that they necessarily thought they were all that important doctrinally. But since initially they appeared to be something written by the founder of the church, it probably seemed prudent to own them.

Originally Posted by Fusnik11

would moses be duped? what about abraham? what about job, paul, peter, james or john? our leaders today are of no lesser spiritual significance than these men and quite possibly will have more historical significance as we prepare for the second coming.

The difference between Moses, Abraham and the like is that they didn't have their every move recorded. I'd guess that if we had newspaper accounts of their day to day activities they wouldn't be all that much different.

Originally Posted by Fusnik11

i think members who look at this situation can think one of three things....

a. they arent really prophets.
b. they didnt listen to the spirit.
c. the spirit was absent for some reason.

any other possibilites are welcome to be added.

As I said earlier, they were probably assessing the situation and trying to make sense of it all. Perhaps over time they would have said that they didn't feel the documents were authentic. Or they may have buried them in the archives and said "we don't know what to make of them." Now, had they stuck them in the newest version of the D&C, well then I'd have had issues. :wink:

[Rickomatic]

Originally Posted by bluegoose

Busy day yesterday. I'm a bit late catching this topic.

Were the Adam-God theory and the location of the Garden of Eden mentioned? If not, I would propose they be added to the list, as I have spoken with several people who take issue with this, especially the Garden of Eden.

I am wondering what issue can be taken with the 'Adam-God' theory? I guess I am a little out of the church knowledge group since I sent much of my younger years in the south (Alabama) and not an active member of the church until I met my wife.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Rickomatic

I am wondering what issue can be taken with the 'Adam-God' theory? I guess I am a little out of the church knowledge group since I sent much of my younger years in the south (Alabama) and not an active member of the church until I met my wife.

One of the all time great threads on this board. It's in this religion forum, probably buried a few pages back.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

yet these men dont feel something wasnt right about the situation being presented to them?

would moses be duped? what about abraham? what about job, paul, peter, james or john? our leaders today are of no lesser spiritual significance than these men and quite possibly will have more historical significance as we prepare for the second coming.

i think members who look at this situation can think one of three things....

a. they arent really prophets.
b. they didnt listen to the spirit.
c. the spirit was absent for some reason.

any other possibilites are welcome to be added.

How about:

d. they were not document experts (and were a bit naive as well)

We don't know all the details, but lets assume our church leaders were totally duped on this one. How does their lack of discernment pose a problem and act as evidence against their callings as representatives of God? Constant discernment is simply not doctrinal and has not been practice. The scriptures, the history of the restored gospel, and our own lives are replete with experiences where God lets us make decisions based on our best knowledge and then we deal with the consequences.

Case in point: Alma believes Abinidi, develops a following of righteous believers, the Lord warns Alma and Alma leads his group into the wilderness to escape from King Noah' army. They escape, find a place and set up their own little Zion where life is good. After a while the Lamanites show up along with Alma's old buddies, the Priests of King Noah. Alma and his people are put into bondage, with the old Priests as their masters.

Suddenly Alma doesn't look so inspired. I wonder how many of his people questioned his leadership, falling away asking how he could have let this happen. Why did he stop there and not continue on to Zarahemla in the first place (it was only 12 more days away)? How many suffered unnecessarily due to this perceive misstep?

Too often we Mormons build straw men, accept them as doctrine or inspired practice, and then flounder when they fall down or are blown away. Another consequence of a lay ministry, in my opinion, but one that is easily weathered.

[Iluvatar]

the hardest one for me to get over is the DNA evidence agianst the BOM. It's pretty difficult to explain that one.