Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[Archaea]

This is truly rich, Tex quotes himself as authority. Sometime, we lawyers should try that in court, "Your honor, I'd like to quote myself on that matter...."

Mullah Tex.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Adam

Ok, I'll stop.

But you have noticed that no one is willing to take on Mormon's positions on miracles and the modern church's dearth of miracles. It is a real problem IMHO. We ignore Mormon or we redefine miracle to mean something other than what Mormon meant.

The question in this thread was how one would know if there had occurred an apostasy. It is a serious answer to cite Mormon on miracles. Applying Mormon's test to today's church is troublesome.

Other than rolling over and pulling the pillow tight around your head, how do you evaluate this issue?

Anyone?

I've seen miracles.. like the casting out of devils, healing of the sick and other of that ilk. Just because the FP or the 12 apostles don't relate their stories doesn't mean they haven't had miracles. We tend to look at the scriptures and think those miracles happened every day. Fact is they were miracles and did not happen often. My feeling is the same today.
Modern Day Miracles

Seagulls saving the crops
Rain in the St. George

Those were a long time ago you say... Well how about this.

Growing up in the 1980s what was the one thing I thought would never happen. Missionaries in Russia. Then along came the fall of the Communist regime and voila we have missionaries all over in Russia. Is that not a miracle that a large population of people who previously had no chance to become converted now have several missions and stakes? In the near future we will probably have missionaries all over china. If you would have told that to members of the church 20 years ago they would have said:

"It would take a miracle for that to happen"

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Tex

A couple of items:

First, I'm not sure who surrendered the definition of miracles to Adam, or why no one is challenging his divination of Mormon's intent.

There is no need to dispute Adam note for note on whether miracles exist.....when, indeed, the very fact that Adam's nose is not perpetually broken is, in and of itself, a true miracle.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

I have witnessed the gift of tongues.

Whatever happened to the gift of tongues in the church? I have been reading how Eliza R. Snow (Smith Young) and Zina Huntington (Smith Young) and others frequently engaged in both speaking in tongues and the interpretations of tongues. That is, they did exactly what you might see in many evangelical churches today where someone would speak what would sound like gibberish and someone else would interpret it.

I never realized that this was practiced in the early church but apparently it was. It certainly casts D&C 46:24-25 in a different light, as well the 7th article of faith. I wonder where this gift went. Seriously.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Whatever happened to the gift of tongues in the church? I have been reading how Eliza R. Snow (Smith Young) and Zina Huntington (Smith Young) and others frequently engaged in both speaking in tongues and the interpretations of tongues. That is, they did exactly what you might see in many evangelical churches today where someone would speak what would sound like gibberish and someone else would interpret it.

I never realized that this was practiced in the early church but apparently it was. It certainly casts D&C 46:24-25 in a different light, as well the 7th article of faith. I wonder where this gift went. Seriously.

I'm not sure how much of my previous post you read, but do you believe that God can/will adjust the manifestation of his gifts in response to the adversary's attempts to counterfeit them?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Adam

Ok, I'll stop.

But you have noticed that no one is willing to take on Mormon's positions on miracles and the modern church's dearth of miracles. It is a real problem IMHO. We ignore Mormon or we redefine miracle to mean something other than what Mormon meant.

The question in this thread was how one would know if there had occurred an apostasy. It is a serious answer to cite Mormon on miracles. Applying Mormon's test to today's church is troublesome.

Other than rolling over and pulling the pillow tight around your head, how do you evaluate this issue?

Anyone?

Pillow over my head? That is rich.

First of all, you are mocking a simple gesture by a humble, gentle man, portraying it as a silly and cheap substitute for the "real religion" in which he should be engaged: performing "miracles". As if there is any connection between the two. Furthermore, the Perpetual Education Fund is a wonderful program and one of the best ideas to come out of SLC in a long time, IMO. Again, implying that it is a cheap substitute for good old-fashioned Jesus-type miracles is juvenile.

Like just about everything else in religion, what one considers to be a miracle is ultimately subjective and personal. If you were to poll the average LDS member if they have seen or experienced things that they believe to be miracles, I think the vast majority would say yes. Perhaps you (or I) would look at many of these and see other explanations, but who the hell are we to make that judgment? If we follow your line of reasoning, you seem to be saying that the modern church leadership doesn't perform enough big, showy, public miracles that would astound the most hardened skeptic. As if what we really need is TSM on network television charming snakes, drinking poison, and pulling people out of wheelchairs. To hell with getting thousands upon thousands of people to donate money so that young members in third world countries can get a quality education and break the cycle of poverty. To hell with building tens of thousands of wheelchairs per year and providing them to members and non-members around the globe who have had to drag themselves around in the dirt for years.

And how could you definitively state that miracles are not happening? How could you possibly claim to know what happens around the globe in a church with millions of members? Especially when such experiences are often treated as sacred and not broadcast publicly (nor should they be). I would argue that the quiet acknowledgment of how God moves in the everyday lives of members is the glue that holds the church together. And it provides a foundation of faith for millions, both in and out of the church. Your judgment on the legitimacy of those miracles notwithstanding.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Archaea

This is truly rich, Tex quotes himself as authority. Sometime, we lawyers should try that in court, "Your honor, I'd like to quote myself on that matter...."

Mullah Tex.

That's not really fair. Tex was making a valid point.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm not sure how much of my previous post you read, but do you believe that God can/will adjust the manifestation of his gifts in response to the adversary's attempts to counterfeit them?

Sure. But I also realize that that is a fully self encapsulating argument. In other words, every one of the gifts could be withdrawn and this argument would still explain that as being normal.

[TripletDaddy]

How does someone who takes Adam's position on the alleged lack of "miracles" reconcile Mormon with the Lord's direct admonition to Oliver Cowdery in D&C 24:13 to NOT require miracles in his missionary work?

The substance of miracles has changed. There is not much need for walking on water or raising Lazarus any more. We do our work in private...our healings, our blessings, our supplications.

Miracles still exist. They are everywhere.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

How does someone who takes Adam's position on the alleged lack of "miracles" reconcile Mormon with the Lord's direct admonition to Oliver Cowdery in D&C 24:13 to NOT require miracles in his missionary work?

The substance of miracles has changed. There is not much need for walking on water or raising Lazarus any more. We do our work in private...our healings, our blessings, our supplications.

Miracles still exist. They are everywhere.

So do you agree that the same signs and wonders that followed the early church are no longer seen. I can get the idea that we don't need signs and that this is not truly what converts. That is straight forward. But that still, to me, begs the question why these things are ever necessary and what is the difference between those times they are and now.