A question for the Orthodox:

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Like flippantly calling a prophet an insular racist, without actually having a clear, detailed understanding of the process behind how an Apostle is actually called? Guilty until proven innocent?

You can with a straight face sustain President Monson as a prophet, seer and revelator, while at the same time firmly believing he is deliberately bypassing God to put in whom he will because God would tell him to de-whiten the Quorum? "Prophet, seer and revelator": what do those words really mean? Do they have no more meaning or value than a degree from the Sally Struthers Correspondence School of Macrame and Urban Anthropology?

First of all, nobody called him an insular racist. You asked if it would be ok to call him that, and there is certainly no commandment that prohibits it. Brigham Young was an insular racist. I think the historical record supports that. He was also a prophet. Again, does it cause cognitive dissonance for you to know that no prophet is without flaw? There are many plausible explanations for President Monson's failure to call any minorities to the 12, one of which is that he is a racist. Another of which, which I proferred, was that he calls those he is most closely associated with, and those people do not tend to be minorities. Not surprising you can't comprehend the difference. There may be racist tendencies reflected in his associations, or it may be nothing more than geography coupled with the fact that he has been in church leadership for decades, and almost everyone in church leadership in SLC is white.

Who said anything about him intentionally bypassing God in making a selection other than you?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Your flippant response masks a truly important question for LDS members today. Is it de facto inappropriate to believe that the prophet has personal flaws? Is it ever appropriate to question the prophet?

These issues get to the sentiment that many Mormons, including yourself, believe the prophet to be infallible, and any criticism or question of the prophet or his motives must be a sin.

Total non sequitur. Prophetic infallibility is not even in the same solar system with this discussion.

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And again you bounce back to the sentiment that there are only 12 individuals that the Lord would find acceptable to serve in the 12 right now. You are starting to argue with yourself, Glen.

The 12 men who have been called are, I am sure, acceptable to God. That says nothing about whether or not they are the only ones who are acceptable, nor does it suggest that God will actively require the prophet to call a minority to the ranks of apostleship. It is odd that you accept all of the following:

1. God follows a granular, non-interventionist policy most of the time;
2. God prefers that his children work through issues and then ask Him for confirmation rather than giving them information up front;
3. There are many names that could be presented to God for apostleship which He would confirm, if they were presented, and some of them are minorities;

but that you cannot accept:

4. The issue with the lack of minorities being called to apostleship may have absolutely nothing to do with God, but may more reflect prejudices, intentional or otherwise, of the prophet in selecting those for apostleship.

I will consider #4 when there is some reasonable evidence worth considering. "But there's no minority apostles" is insufficient. I prefer to give the prophet the benefit of the doubt.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Who said anything about him intentionally bypassing God in making a selection other than you?

OK. Pretend you're Prophet-for-a-Day. You ask God if He had His druthers, what would be that one name and one name only to fill the open slot in the Q12. What name do you get as an answer?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Total non sequitur. Prophetic infallibility is not even in the same solar system with this discussion.



I will consider #4 when there is some reasonable evidence worth considering. "But there's no minority apostles" is insufficient. I prefer to give the prophet the benefit of the doubt.

And I prefer to give God the benefit of the doubt.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And I prefer to give God the benefit of the doubt.

The benefit of what doubt?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

OK. Pretend you're Prophet-for-a-Day. You ask God if He had His druthers, what would be that one name and one name only to fill the open slot in the Q12. What name do you get as an answer?

I don't believe that is how God operates. Instead, I would feel no confirmation from the Spirit whatsoever, which I would take to mean He is saying "think it through and get back to me," knowing full well that if I really thought it through, there would be several individuals who I could select, all of whom He would approve if I selected them.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The benefit of what doubt?

That He isn't actively creating a system that discriminates against some of His children based on the color of skin that He gave to them.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

That He isn't actively creating a system that discriminates against some of His children based on the color of skin that He gave to them.

So if He said that Elder Andersen was the correct person, that is a de facto end product of a racially discriminatory selection process?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I don't believe that is how God operates. Instead, I would feel no confirmation from the Spirit whatsoever, which I would take to mean He is saying "think it through and get back to me," knowing full well that if I really thought it through, there would be several individuals who I could select, all of whom He would approve if I selected them.

Based on what?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So if He said that Elder Andersen was the correct person, that is a de facto end product of a racially discriminatory selection process?

Bingo. If the prophets really weren't racists, they would've picked a minority by now.

This is called "giving God the benefit of the doubt."