08-23-2006, 11:15 PM | #41 | |
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster Last edited by SeattleUte; 08-24-2006 at 03:22 AM. |
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08-24-2006, 12:05 AM | #42 |
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Seattle,
When you look back, what was the first thing that gave you a serious doubt about the LDS church and your testimony? I'm sure you've previously posted that, but I do want to search thru all of your posts. Scottie |
08-24-2006, 12:34 AM | #43 | |
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SU's answer will be interesting, but in asking apostates, you may be well-advised to ask if they claim to ever have known or believed in the Church. The answers typically fall into one or two camps, "never believed and left as soon as I had a chance", or "some doubts arose after I read this hidden gem, Fawn Brodie's book." And I'm not claiming it's true for SU, as I don't know and don't believe it's true for him, but no apostate ever admits, "well, I was really horny and it didn't fit well with my value system to go hump a lot of gals, so out of a desire to laid more often, and so I could feel good about having a few beers, I just kinda gave it up." Nobody has any idea as to the quantities, but it would be a rare person who would admit the third category; most will try some noble reason. An oddity though is how many will declare, "now I'm no longer bound by those onerous self-righteous old men, I can go out and drink a martini without feeling guilty." Why saucing your brain is the pinnacle of freedom is beyond me. I'd love to read the first apostate that states, "hey, I don't want to drink because it doesn't do anything for the body, and I don't want to hump licentiously, but heck the doctrines just don't make sense." There must people around who fit that description but they are not many.
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08-24-2006, 02:08 AM | #44 | |
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It really isn't that mysterious why people leave the Church. They leave because they stop believing. There was a time when I believed, but eventually I realized I was wrong. I also used to believe in Santa Claus. The fact that I eventually stopped believing in Santa did not signal a weakness in character. I did not stop believing in Santa so I could have an excuse to not be a good boy all year. I stopped believing because I simply realized that Santa didn't really exist.
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08-24-2006, 02:17 AM | #45 | |
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08-24-2006, 02:37 AM | #46 |
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I have a friend who is the rare apostate that grew up in the church, is well-versed in church history, does not discount his spiritual experiences in the church, and attends a liberal protestant church currently.
In other words, he doesn't poo-poo the worldview that includes the Spirit. Because, honestly, that is the divide for me. Then again, when I hear from someone how God is guiding them into licentiousness, my eyes tend to glaze over. "God wants me to be a selfish bastard, lucky for me." The church goes on, with or without us. |
08-24-2006, 02:42 AM | #47 | |
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Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'. |
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08-24-2006, 03:23 AM | #48 | |
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A person who grows up not believing in God, but being taught certain things are socially right or wrong because society functions better if certain activities are avoided and performed is understandable. And many of these persons are not religious. This group forms a significant class of persons. A person who once believed, having been taught that there are certain divine laws of justice and righteousness which lead to ultimate happiness, and thereafter rejects that tenet, for that person to fall back onto what society teaches, seems disconnected. Society is often wrong. I suppose such a person can fall back on to utilitarian views, which make a lot of sense independent of right and wrong. But once one rejects divinity, how can there be anything more than utilitarianism? I recognize people bounce from belief system to belief system, but either there is a universal purpose and right or wrong, or there's not. And then one should act pragmatically and according to utility or not. The belief systems that posit that anything is okay, or that you just rely upon "enlightened" within society make no sense to, oversimplifying the matter. And in a more practical sense, if one goes from restrictive to less restrictive, what determines how unrestrictive a person becomes?
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Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα Last edited by Archaea; 08-24-2006 at 03:47 AM. |
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08-24-2006, 03:50 AM | #49 | |
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At least Non Sequitur gave you fair warning.
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08-24-2006, 03:54 AM | #50 |
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If one abandons divine law, what purpose is there in being moral?
Utility is the only argument that I can come up with, because society is a piece of crap generally. So I don't give a rat's ass about society, except through the broader sense of seeing them as my brothers and sisters. If I didn't believe that, then to hell with them. No Non Seq is a moral person, trustworthy and worthy of friendship, but how a person who dismisses divine law, asks of himself to be moral is a mystery other than utility, or "Mom" taught me and I respect them.
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