I've thought long and hard about Prop. 8

[Black Diamond Bay]

and whether or not there will be any negative fallout on society. At the end of the day I still believe there will be, and I am so convinced that I even find myself astonished by people that can't fathom that result. It reminded me of prohibition, so I dug around a bit and found a quote from a talk by President Hinckley, which after reading it I wonder why does anyone who may not personally care one way or another whether gays can get married in California fight it so much? I just don't get fighting against the church over gay marriage of all things.


"In 1933 there was a movement in the United States to overturn the law which prohibited commerce in alcoholic beverages. When it came to a vote, Utah was the deciding state.

I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, “Utah Kills Prohibition.”

President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.

On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.

How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

Thank you, my dear brethren, you men of great strength and great fidelity and great faith and great loyalty.

Finally, loyalty to God our Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every man in this Church is entitled to the knowledge that God is our Eternal Father and His Beloved Son is our Redeemer. The Savior gave the key by which we may have such knowledge. He declared, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).

Judas Iscariot has gone down in history as the great betrayer, who sold his loyalty for 30 pieces of silver (see Matt. 26:15).

How many in our time, to quote the words of Paul, “crucify … the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” with profane and blasphemous language? (see Heb. 6:6).

You know of the profanity of the school grounds and the street. Avoid it. Never let it cross your lips. Show your loyalty to the God of heaven and to the Redeemer of the world by holding Their names sacred.

Pray to your Heavenly Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and always, under all circumstances, by the very nature of your lives show your loyalty and your love.

Who’s on the Lord’s side? Who?
Now is the time to show.
We ask it fearlessly:
Who’s on the Lord’s side? Who?
(“Who’s on the Lord’s Side?” Hymns, no. 260)


May the blessings of heaven rest upon you and your families, my dear brethren. May each of us always be found to be true and faithful, men and boys of integrity and absolute loyalty, I pray in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen."

[TripletDaddy]

I think there are two main areas of concern about this one...although I could be wrong...this is just my opinion...


1. The Church has taken positions before on social issues (polygamy, blacks for example) and then later reversed its position....whether by revelation or from political pressure, nobody here can say for sure.
2. Church leaders are not perfect and there is no doctrine of infallibility. Therefore, the question is......is this gay marriage issue really God talking to everyone....or is it some older white guys in SLC who feel strongly about gays....just as old white guys in SLC felt strongly about blacks/interracial relationships/etc in the 50s and 60s....and just as old white guys in SLC felt strongly about plural marriage when the saints came to Utah....all of which at one time was the will of God, but then all of a sudden was no longer the will of God.

I think some here are simply skipping a step and fast forwarding to the point wherein this gay marriage thing will no longer be the cause of all our problems. In a few more years, there will be a new cause of all our problems. I will likely hop back on the train at that point.

I appreciate your post, though, and think it is a good quote by GBH.

[MikeWaters]

Hinckley seems to imply that if you don't believe the church can be wrong when it's leaders take a stand on something, then the church is a fraud. So if you don't think the church is a fraud, you must join it when it makes political stands.

I will agree that loyalty is a great virtue. But history tells us that loyalty to some causes is unwarranted. See the Holocaust as an extreme example. Or the loyalty to the Japanese Emperor as God on Earth, leading to unspeakable carnage.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Hinckley seems to imply that if you don't believe the church can be wrong when it's leaders take a stand on something, then the church is a fraud. So if you don't think the church is a fraud, you must join it when it makes political stands.

I will agree that loyalty is a great virtue. But history tells us that loyalty to some causes is unwarranted. See the Holocaust as an extreme example. Or the loyalty to the Japanese Emperor as God on Earth, leading to unspeakable carnage.

I think loyalty is most often borne of fear rather than love, especially in fascist regimes.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I think there are two main areas of concern about this one...although I could be wrong...this is just my opinion...


1. The Church has taken positions before on social issues (polygamy, blacks for example) and then later reversed its position....whether by revelation or from political pressure, nobody here can say for sure.
2. Church leaders are not perfect and there is no doctrine of infallibility. Therefore, the question is......is this gay marriage issue really God talking to everyone....or is it some older white guys in SLC who feel strongly about gays....just as old white guys in SLC felt strongly about blacks/interracial relationships/etc in the 50s and 60s....and just as old white guys in SLC felt strongly about plural marriage when the saints came to Utah....all of which at one time was the will of God, but then all of a sudden was no longer the will of God.

I think some here are simply skipping a step and fast forwarding to the point wherein this gay marriage thing will no longer be the cause of all our problems. In a few more years, there will be a new cause of all our problems. I will likely hop back on the train at that point.

I appreciate your post, though, and think it is a good quote by GBH.

I can see that viewpoint, but at the same time, I am assuming that most of us here have already sustained those leaders, and so is it not then incumbent on us to follow through on that. Suppose the church is wrong, and gay marriage doesn't change a thing, was it really still okay to stand out in blatant opposition to church leadership...and what if they are right, and it is a big deal? It just seems to me that since no one really KNOWS what will happen, that erring on the side of obedience and loyalty in the face of the unknown would be the more appropriate course of action.

[ewth8tr]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I can see that viewpoint, but at the same time, I am assuming that most of us here have already sustained those leaders, and so is it not then incumbent on us to follow through on that. Suppose the church is wrong, and gay marriage doesn't change a thing, was it really still okay to stand out in blatant opposition to church leadership...and what if they are right, and it is a big deal? It just seems to me that since no one really KNOWS what will happen, that erring on the side of obedience and loyalty in the face of the unknown would be the more appropriate course of action.

BDB, that would be assuming that there is a topic with an unknown answer and on a message board with as many smart people posting on it like cougarguard, that isn't possible.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I can see that viewpoint, but at the same time, I am assuming that most of us here have already sustained those leaders, and so is it not then incumbent on us to follow through on that. Suppose the church is wrong, and gay marriage doesn't change a thing, was it really still okay to stand out in blatant opposition to church leadership...and what if they are right, and it is a big deal? It just seems to me that since no one really KNOWS what will happen, that erring on the side of obedience and loyalty in the face of the unknown would be the more appropriate course of action.

I have thought about this. But it goes against my conscience. This one just doesnt pass the sniff test for me.

I figure that of all the things we do wrong in life, sincerely followings ones conscience (but incorrectly so), will not be a huge deal.

Remember, I am not preventing anyone from doing what they think is right. I am not out campaigning against Prop 8. And I certainly am not calling people in their homes trying to pressure them. I am simply staying on the sidelines during this possession. I will get back in the game after the next first down. Admittedly not a valiant approach, but it is the best I can do on this one, since I am conflicted.

As a procedural comment, I dont dig the ward calling me to encourage me to follow the Prophet. I dont want calls at the end of the year reminding me to obey the word of wisdom or to forgive others, either. Once it is spoken at Church, in GC, and in the Ensign, that is good enough. Don't call me and get me to sign a list.

BDB, on a side note, you going to UW?

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I have thought about this. But it goes against my conscience. This one just doesnt pass the sniff test for me.

I figure that of all the things we do wrong in life, sincerely followings ones conscience (but incorrectly so), will not be a huge deal.

Remember, I am not preventing anyone from doing what they think is right. I am not out campaigning against Prop 8. And I certainly am not calling people in their homes trying to pressure them. I am simply staying on the sidelines during this possession. I will get back in the game after the next first down. Admittedly not a valiant approach, but it is the best I can do on this one, since I am conflicted.

As a procedural comment, I dont dig the ward calling me to encourage me to follow the Prophet. I dont want calls at the end of the year reminding me to obey the word of wisdom or to forgive others, either. Once it is spoken at Church, in GC, and in the Ensign, that is good enough. Don't call me and get me to sign a list.

BDB, on a side note, you going to UW?

I don't know. I'm still trying to decide. I would like to, but I never really got around to securing myself a ticket, or booking a flight. Are you going?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I don't know. I'm still trying to decide. I would like to, but I never really got around to securing myself a ticket, or booking a flight. Are you going?

Absolutely. Will definitely be in attendance. Going to buy tickets there.

If you do attend, let's meet up for a bit beforehand and talk about gay marriage.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

If you do attend, let's meet up for a bit beforehand and talk about gay marriage.

Don't do it BDB. He extended the same invite to me and it did not turn out well.