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Old 05-04-2009, 01:30 PM   #31
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One of my faults is that I was much too nice and patient with people that wished me ill. Like a cancer it grows until it is unmanageable.

The torture-purveyors are the same. They are the cancer that America is either doing to deal with now or ignore.

When America is gone, they will look back to now. They will look at the flouting of the constitution, the ignoring of laws in the name of security, the breaches of civil liberties. They will note how nobody cared, how people lied, how people were willing to trade their liberties for a false security.

In another age, Jay Bybee would be dragged onto the street and shot. His head would be placed on a pole in the city square.

I don't ask for that. I merely ask that he be questioned under oath. I ask that he be prosecuted, if he broke the law. I ask that if he was unethical in his prior job, that impeachment be considered. Whether that happens or not, I ask that he be shunned. Not as a leper. Because lepers we should care for and serve. Shunned like a devil.

The world likes it devils. And there will be people who call good evil, and evil good. "If you are against torture, you are a gross hypocrite." The number of people with any amount of moral clarity diminishes daily.
I only stated that it is hypocritical to judge someone for their moral rationalizations, while ignoring the inherent faults with one's own moral rationalizations. I've never wished you ill Mike.
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Old 05-04-2009, 02:30 PM   #32
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Link!
They both killed people. They both wound up at the same end, which you said makes them the same.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:12 PM   #33
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/us...ybee.html?_r=1

Can we hurry up and excommunicate him already? That would be a good start.

It boggles my mind how we can officially disfellowship Labute, but we can't disfellowship this man?

Oh yeah, that's right, most Mormons likely support torture.
I'm interested in, if he is prosecuted and convicted, whether or not his importance and conservative politics will protect him from a Church disciplinary action. If I were him, I'd move my records to the most redneck ward I could find and hope that discretion prevented any calls from the COB or CAB.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:19 PM   #34
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I'm interested in, if he is prosecuted and convicted, whether or not his importance and conservative politics will protect him from a Church disciplinary action. If I were him, I'd move my records to the most redneck ward I could find and hope that discretion prevented any calls from the COB or CAB.
And here I thought church discipline of a person for merely holding an opinion was something you and Waters opposed.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:20 PM   #35
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I honestly don't know if Bybee is a member in good standing, if he is active, or what. I assume he is, but it's just an assumption.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:22 PM   #36
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And here I thought church discipline of a person for merely holding an opinion was something you and Waters opposed.
My comments were all premised on a big "if." If he's convicted of a felony, is it really right to compare that to "merely holding an opinion?"

You aren't personally ramping up the political protection, are you Tex?
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:24 PM   #37
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Tex, you should start contacting SPs and find out who will protect Bybee if he moves into their stake!
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:34 PM   #38
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My comments were all premised on a big "if." If he's convicted of a felony, is it really right to compare that to "merely holding an opinion?"
Depends on what he's convicted of. I've yet to hear a reasonable argument as to what law Bybee actually broke. If you want to make that argument, maybe I can give you a better answer on how a church leader might react.

As it now stands, Bybee is being assaulted because he authored an opinion (however well or poorly argued). And now you (and Waters) are suggesting it should cost him some measure of his membership.

I was under the impression you opposed that kind of thing.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:43 PM   #39
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Depends on what he's convicted of. I've yet to hear a reasonable argument as to what law Bybee actually broke. If you want to make that argument, maybe I can give you a better answer on how a church leader might react.

As it now stands, Bybee is being assaulted because he authored an opinion (however well or poorly argued). And now you (and Waters) are suggesting it should cost him some measure of his membership.

I was under the impression you opposed that kind of thing.
I'm not going to play prosecutor, Tex, although I am enjoying yanking your chain a bit.

Ease off there, partner.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:42 PM   #40
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Depends on what he's convicted of. I've yet to hear a reasonable argument as to what law Bybee actually broke. If you want to make that argument, maybe I can give you a better answer on how a church leader might react.

As it now stands, Bybee is being assaulted because he authored an opinion (however well or poorly argued). And now you (and Waters) are suggesting it should cost him some measure of his membership.

I was under the impression you opposed that kind of thing.
It isn't hard to come up with a law he broke. Torture is illegal. He would have committed conspiracy to commit torture.
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