Jack Anderson was an unlikely Mormon....

[MikeWaters]

He was a muckraker, a foe of the corrupt and powerful. He risked his life to do his work.

To my 2005 eyes, this seems very unlikely for a Mormon. Mormons are generally well-mannered compliant folk who do not make waves.

I mourn the fact we do not have more Jack Andersons.

Sadly, my mind is drawn to the example of Jay Bybee, Mormon author of the infamous torture memo.

Are we destined to produce the future Jay Bybee's of the world? Or the Jack Andersons?

I can tell you one thing for certain. If any Jack Andersons come from BYU, it will be in spite of the institution, not because of it.

[Archaea]

especially if you knew him.

How is it that a surgeon operates on a rapist shot by police? Or psychiatrist testifies that a murderer didn't know right from wrong?

Jack Anderson was a gadfly, and as the Church tent increases more gadflies shall increase.

[MikeWaters]

I wish Jay could tell me the context in which he wrote the memo. THen I could better judge him.

"Hey Jay, go write up a memo on torture, and come up with some guidelines."


or

"Hey Jay, write a memo that squeezes every last bit of possibility of harsh treatment that still meets our legal obligations"

or

"Hey Jay, several incidents have happened, and we need to cover our asses if this ever gets out. Come up with something." (this is actually some of the stuff I read--that CIA was doing some stuff, and there was internal dissension about the legality, and that the memo was retrospective).

No matter how you slice it, Jay Bybee's name will be a hiss and byword at most, and forgotten at least.

I don't care if Jay is a "good guy" or not. "good guys" can be the instruments of evil. Certainly much evil was justified by his legal reasoning.

[Archaea]

Quantify it.

You're really making a mountain out of a molehill. It won't make one difference and nobody except people who hold grudges will remember it, unless he's nominated and appointed for higher judicial office.

Hiss and a byword for whom? It was used for political advantage by some of the political left. What evidence do we have, conclusive that it ever produced any tangible harm?

I'm of the opinion, nothing we do really matters except where our hearts lie and how we comply with the Spirit. Other than that, what we do is really insignificant.

[MikeWaters]

I would say that his memo was used to the advantage of people intending to do bad things.

When Bybee sat down and decided that any torture that did not kill or cause permanent organ failure was permissible and legal, I have a hard time believing he was sitting there full of the Holy Ghost.

We have moral responsibilities beyond the technocalities we encounter.

It wasn't devils who committed the holocaust. It was bureaucrats.

This goes way beyond a "grudge", this goes to the heart of the question of what this nation is about. As manifested by recent political debates in Washington.

I know people make mistakes. But there is no indication that Bybee thinks he made a mistake. Even worse, he is in an influential position on a powerful court. If he were just sitting at home eating Doritos, I would be less inclined to say something. But he is still in the public arena, and as such it is the duty of citizens to influence the future. I may be delusional to think my opinions make any difference, but that is not going to stop me from calling Bybee out on the carpet.

Remember, at least morally, the church does not agree with Bybee (perhaps Bybee does not agree with degrading treatment and torture either, who knows).

[Indy Coug]

Mike, what do you think of Teancum? I mean, the guy sneaked in and killed Amalickiah and Ammoron in cold blood while they slept. No due process or anything.

[MikeWaters]

I'm still in first nephi. ask me next week.

(today in Ward council, Bishop went around the room and asked each of us where we were in our reading of the BOM. Needless to say "1st nephi chpater 19" was not the answer he was looking for. Luckily his son the EQ president also said "1st nephi").

To me it sounds like Teancum did not have the wherewithall to capture his enemies.

It is quite different to capture your enemy and then torture him at your leisure.

[All-American]

That could be the greatest response I've heard in 23 days. Good work, mike.

[VegasCougar]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I wish Jay could tell me the context in which he wrote the memo. THen I could better judge him.

"Hey Jay, go write up a memo on torture, and come up with some guidelines."


or

"Hey Jay, write a memo that squeezes every last bit of possibility of harsh treatment that still meets our legal obligations"

or

"Hey Jay, several incidents have happened, and we need to cover our asses if this ever gets out. Come up with something." (this is actually some of the stuff I read--that CIA was doing some stuff, and there was internal dissension about the legality, and that the memo was retrospective).

No matter how you slice it, Jay Bybee's name will be a hiss and byword at most, and forgotten at least.

I don't care if Jay is a "good guy" or not. "good guys" can be the instruments of evil. Certainly much evil was justified by his legal reasoning.

Mike,

From my experience, it's not uncommon to be faced with the following situation: We have a client who may or may not have violated the law. Go research the law and write a memo putting our client's actions in the best light possible but make sure all your legal conclusions are sound and that you do not misrepresent the facts.

From the accounts that I have read, this is what Jay Bybee did. He wrote a memo that interpreted the (probably past and continuing) interogation techniques in the best possible legal light. That's part of being an advocate and I don't think it makes him an instrument of evil. It just means that he made the best possible argument that he was asked to make. At least from a legal standpoint, his conclusions were sound and did not misrepresent that law.

Attorneys are asked to advocate for various causes and clients all the time, I don't believe it is fair to judge an attorney based on whether or not you agree with their client or cause. Put another way, I believe you can be an ethical attorney and a good Latter-Day Saint and still write a memo for your boss that broadly interprets the legal norms that define what torture is.

If there is a silver lining to this whole mess, it's that we can have an open debate about which methods we will allow our government to use and which ones we will not use.

[Goatnapper'96]

versus torture, I have an opinion. Both the dudes Teancum put javelin's into their hearts after stealing privily into their camps were combatants. Both had the capacity to to wage war against Teancum's side. When it comes to torture, that is usually afflicted upon folks that are no longer combatants.

There has been enough documented cases of torture to have me irate about the issue. I am not talking about loud music or underwear on head. I am talking about human beings dying in US custody when they should not.

But as the cadence went when I marched new LDS plebes to Church many summers ago: "Teancum was an Airborne Ranger and I'll be one too!"