Tithing Settlement - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Iluvatar · 12-19-2005, 10:04 PM

Fuegote,

God did not ask Abraham to break any vows, oaths, promises or covenants when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Joseph Smith did precisely that. All these women had previously promised faith to their husbands.

The two scenarios are apples and oranges.

You would really submit to having some old geezer bang your wife while you still supported and loved her? You are out of your ever lovin' mind!

non sequitur · 12-19-2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Non Sequitur,

I'll ask you this. Would you submit to such an arrangement?

Hey, I don't even cough up the dough when they come around collecting for "Friends of Scouting". If I'm not going to donate 20 bucks to the scouts, I'm certainly not going to donate my wife to the bishop.

fuegote · 12-19-2005, 10:19 PM

I guess I'm out of my ever lovin' mind then.

Ask yourself again, If God asked us to give all of our income, property, etc to the church....could you do that? I could.

My ways are not God's ways. Again, if the SPirit confirmed that I was to give my wife to the prophet....why would I deny that?

Heber C Kimball was asked to and he was going to and that's when he passed his test and was eternally sealed to his wife.

But then again, I'm a sheep that doesn't think for myself (tic to the first post you gave us). I can think for myself and if the spirit so dictates, I will comply. Why is that so hard to believe.

(and trust me, I love my wife more than life itself. She is my absolute best friend. I don't know how I would feel if asked to part with her, but I do know, all will work out in the end).

SteelBlue · 12-19-2005, 10:38 PM

Gentlemen,

I have a feeling that Iluvatar may be a troll. However, what he is saying about polyandry did occur. The only thing that is in dispute is whether or not Joseph's marriages to women already married were consummated.

I have studied the matter much as I was horrified upon first learning of it. It is simply a fact that Joseph had many wives who were married to other men. He consummated his marriages to the women who were unmarried and there really is no reason to think that he didn't consummate the marriages to the already married women. But there exists according to Bushman, no credible evidence that absolutely proves he consummated the marriages to the already married women.

I have come to different conclusions than Iluvatar regarding the matter. I believe Joseph was indeed commanded to do what he did and that those who participated received a witness that it was what was what the Lord wanted of them.

non sequitur · 12-19-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuegote

I guess I'm out of my ever lovin' mind then.

Ask yourself again, If God asked us to give all of our income, property, etc to the church....could you do that? I could.

My ways are not God's ways. Again, if the SPirit confirmed that I was to give my wife to the prophet....why would I deny that?

Heber C Kimball was asked to and he was going to and that's when he passed his test and was eternally sealed to his wife.

But then again, I'm a sheep that doesn't think for myself (tic to the first post you gave us). I can think for myself and if the spirit so dictates, I will comply. Why is that so hard to believe.

(and trust me, I love my wife more than life itself. She is my absolute best friend. I don't know how I would feel if asked to part with her, but I do know, all will work out in the end).

I admire your faith, but the minute a prophet says he wants to do my wife is the minute I'm starting to think maybe this guy isn't really a prophet. If I really thought God wanted me to do something, I would do just about anything (that whole omnipotence thing scares the hell out of me). But some things are going to require more than just a confirmation of the spirit. You give me heavenly visitations with threats of eternal damnation and I'll sign over my wife tomorrow, but short of that my wife is staying right where she is.

All-American · 12-19-2005, 10:43 PM

Sorry, Iluvatar, but I don't agree. There is so much speculative evidence out there that the only thing that is undisputable regarding Joseph Smith and polygamy is the disputability of the topic.

fuegote · 12-19-2005, 10:43 PM

You mean receiving a witness after a trial of your faith works here as well

.

I agree with Steelblue 100%.

Non, you mentioned something very important,

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequiter (sp?)

the minute a prophet says he wants to do my wife is the time I'm starting to think maybe this guy isn't really a prophet. "

.

I didn't mention that those kind of thoughts wouldn't go through my head at first. I would have doubts and would have to obtain a knowledge that it is true first. Don't think I would just hand her over without really thinking about it.

I'm saying that if the confirmation was there....how could I deny it?

SteelBlue · 12-19-2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Fuegote,

God did not ask Abraham to break any vows, oaths, promises or covenants when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Joseph Smith did precisely that. All these women had previously promised faith to their husbands.

The two scenarios are apples and oranges.

You would really submit to having some old geezer bang your wife while you still supported and loved her? You are out of your ever lovin' mind!

Iluvatar, as you know it is very difficult to "defend" what Joseph and Brigham did re: Polyandry. You either believe they were commanded to do it or you believe that they were perverting the ways of the Lord. I believe that they were commanded to do it.

In each case, Joseph approached the family first. In each case he asked the family and the women to find out for themselves if it was what God had commanded. In each case the women willingly married him, usually describing in their journals that they had some amazing witness of the truth of the principle after initially being horrified.

The bottom line is that Joseph believed he was commanded to take these wives. He also believed that his marriages superceded the earthly marriages of these women. Either he was a prophet and was correct or he wasn't and he lied about it to get these women. I have to go by what his teachings and revelations have meant to myself and my family for generations. I have to go by his "fruits". I choose to believe that he lived and died a prophet.

UtahDan · 12-19-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuegote

I guess I'm out of my ever lovin' mind then.

Ask yourself again, If God asked us to give all of our income, property, etc to the church....could you do that? I could.

My ways are not God's ways. Again, if the SPirit confirmed that I was to give my wife to the prophet....why would I deny that?

Heber C Kimball was asked to and he was going to and that's when he passed his test and was eternally sealed to his wife.

But then again, I'm a sheep that doesn't think for myself (tic to the first post you gave us). I can think for myself and if the spirit so dictates, I will comply. Why is that so hard to believe.

(and trust me, I love my wife more than life itself. She is my absolute best friend. I don't know how I would feel if asked to part with her, but I do know, all will work out in the end).

I admire your faith, but the minute a prophet says he wants to do my wife is the minute I'm starting to think maybe this guy isn't really a prophet. If I really thought God wanted me to do something, I would do just about anything (that whole omnipotence thing scares the hell out of me). But some things are going to require more than just a confirmation of the spirit. You give me heavenly visitations with threats of eternal damnation and I'll sign over my wife tomorrow, but short of that my wife is staying right where she is.

What about your man crush on Jake? What would it take to make you give THAT up? ;-)

non sequitur · 12-19-2005, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahDan

What about your man crush on Jake? What would it take to make you give THAT up? ;-)

But every time I look at Jake I get a burning in my bosom. That's all the manifestation I need. :P

12-19-2005, 10:04 PM	#31
Iluvatar Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 52	Fuegote, God did not ask Abraham to break any vows, oaths, promises or covenants when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Joseph Smith did precisely that. All these women had previously promised faith to their husbands. The two scenarios are apples and oranges. You would really submit to having some old geezer bang your wife while you still supported and loved her? You are out of your ever lovin' mind! __________________ \"What we do in life echoes in eternity\"

12-19-2005, 10:19 PM	#33
fuegote Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 724	I guess I'm out of my ever lovin' mind then. Ask yourself again, If God asked us to give all of our income, property, etc to the church....could you do that? I could. My ways are not God's ways. Again, if the SPirit confirmed that I was to give my wife to the prophet....why would I deny that? Heber C Kimball was asked to and he was going to and that's when he passed his test and was eternally sealed to his wife. But then again, I'm a sheep that doesn't think for myself (tic to the first post you gave us). I can think for myself and if the spirit so dictates, I will comply. Why is that so hard to believe. (and trust me, I love my wife more than life itself. She is my absolute best friend. I don't know how I would feel if asked to part with her, but I do know, all will work out in the end). __________________ http://www.cavaliersbrigade.com home of the greatest fans in MLS.

12-19-2005, 10:38 PM	#34
SteelBlue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Norcal Posts: 5,821	Gentlemen, I have a feeling that Iluvatar may be a troll. However, what he is saying about polyandry did occur. The only thing that is in dispute is whether or not Joseph's marriages to women already married were consummated. I have studied the matter much as I was horrified upon first learning of it. It is simply a fact that Joseph had many wives who were married to other men. He consummated his marriages to the women who were unmarried and there really is no reason to think that he didn't consummate the marriages to the already married women. But there exists according to Bushman, no credible evidence that absolutely proves he consummated the marriages to the already married women. I have come to different conclusions than Iluvatar regarding the matter. I believe Joseph was indeed commanded to do what he did and that those who participated received a witness that it was what was what the Lord wanted of them.

12-19-2005, 10:43 PM	#36
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	Sorry, Iluvatar, but I don't agree. There is so much speculative evidence out there that the only thing that is undisputable regarding Joseph Smith and polygamy is the disputability of the topic.