Darron Smith to be on RadioWest on Wed. 11am and 7pm MST

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I think the quotation is in poor taste, probably racist by today's standards, but I highly doubt SWK is racist. I think he meant it as counsel, and any counsel with any real meaning has the possibility of offending people. If you're calling him racist, you also must call him elitist.

Is this racist by standards in BY's day?

Earlier, when Young had heard that a black Mormon in Massachusetts had married a white woman, he told the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that he would have them killed "if they were far away from the Gentiles." Minutes of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 3 December 1847, 6, LDS archives, cited in Quinn 1997, p. 251.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_a...t#cite_note-32

[Jim Swarthout]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I think the quotation is in poor taste, probably racist by today's standards, but I highly doubt SWK is racist. I think he meant it as counsel, and any counsel with any real meaning has the possibility of offending people. If you're calling him racist, you also must call him elitist.

I am amazed at the mental gymnastics that people will go through in order to avoid the conclusion that some of our prophets, seers, and revelators were also racists. Cognitive dissonance can sure be bitch.

[Clark Addison]

I'm have to go with Mike on this one. I don't like this quote in a Priesthood manual. I don't want my son being told in Church that it is a bad idea to marry someone outside of his race.

There is a small, but existing group of people, not just in the church, who hold racist ideas about marrying outside of your race. Regardless of President Kimball's intentions, a quote like this gives them ammunition. A couple of years ago, I taught the Marriage and Family Relations class. There was a couple in the class, who were probably around 50 years old. Once, we were talking about teaching our children, and the decisions that they make. The mother made a comment, in a very anguished voice, "I never thought that my daughter would grow up to marry a black man!"

One more thing about this. We see a lot of people, either returned missionaries or others, who marry people from other countries. I have several friends from my mission who married Chinese girls, and know several people who married girls from South America. The cultural differences between someone who grew up in Utah and someone who grew up in Chile are far greater, I would think, than a white and black American, yet this quote is often used by those who seem most concerned with the latter, rather than the former. I have never heard anyone make a comment about a marriage to a Chinese or South American girl, but I have heard comments about Black/White marriages. Not many, thankfully, but there is some of that attitude out there.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout

I am amazed at the mental gymnastics that people will go through in order to avoid the conclusion that some of our prophets, seers, and revelators were also racists. Cognitive dissonance can sure be bitch.

I am amazed at the mental gymnastics that people will go through in order to interpret any statement our prophets, seers, and revelators make that even tangentially deals with race as racism.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

I'm have to go with Mike on this one. I don't like this quote in a Priesthood manual. I don't want my son being told in Church that it is a bad idea to marry someone outside of his race.

There is a small, but existing group of people, not just in the church, who hold racist ideas about marrying outside of your race. Regardless of President Kimball's intentions, a quote like this gives them ammunition. A couple of years ago, I taught the Marriage and Family Relations class. There was a couple in the class, who were probably around 50 years old. Once, we were talking about teaching our children, and the decisions that they make. The mother made a comment, in a very anguished voice, "I never thought that my daughter would grow up to marry a black man!"

One more thing about this. We see a lot of people, either returned missionaries or others, who marry people from other countries. I have several friends from my mission who married Chinese girls, and know several people who married girls from South America. The cultural differences between someone who grew up in Utah and someone who grew up in Chile are far greater, I would think, than a white and black American, yet this quote is often used by those who seem most concerned with the latter, rather than the former. I have never heard anyone make a comment about a marriage to a Chinese or South American girl, but I have heard comments about Black/White marriages. Not many, thankfully, but there is some of that attitude out there.

In all honesty I think SWK's quote and way of thinking probably weighted the american RM/Chilean girl marriage as more different and problematic than an American interracial marriage.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

I'm have to go with Mike on this one. I don't like this quote in a Priesthood manual. I don't want my son being told in Church that it is a bad idea to marry someone outside of his race.

There is a small, but existing group of people, not just in the church, who hold racist ideas about marrying outside of your race. Regardless of President Kimball's intentions, a quote like this gives them ammunition. A couple of years ago, I taught the Marriage and Family Relations class. There was a couple in the class, who were probably around 50 years old. Once, we were talking about teaching our children, and the decisions that they make. The mother made a comment, in a very anguished voice, "I never thought that my daughter would grow up to marry a black man!"

One more thing about this. We see a lot of people, either returned missionaries or others, who marry people from other countries. I have several friends from my mission who married Chinese girls, and know several people who married girls from South America. The cultural differences between someone who grew up in Utah and someone who grew up in Chile are far greater, I would think, than a white and black American, yet this quote is often used by those who seem most concerned with the latter, rather than the former. I have never heard anyone make a comment about a marriage to a Chinese or South American girl, but I have heard comments about Black/White marriages. Not many, thankfully, but there is some of that attitude out there.

The truth is, most of our kids will marry in the church and that makes the odds of them marrying anyone who has African heritage so small as to not even seriously think about. Of Latin ancestory is a completely different question. That is much more likely. I can't even count the number of dopey looking guys I have met who go on their missions to South America and manage to bag some exotic beauty. But here is my sexist comment: most of us worry far less about who our sons marry than who our daughters do. Am I wrong on that?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

I'm have to go with Mike on this one. I don't like this quote in a Priesthood manual. I don't want my son being told in Church that it is a bad idea to marry someone outside of his race.

There is a small, but existing group of people, not just in the church, who hold racist ideas about marrying outside of your race. Regardless of President Kimball's intentions, a quote like this gives them ammunition. A couple of years ago, I taught the Marriage and Family Relations class. There was a couple in the class, who were probably around 50 years old. Once, we were talking about teaching our children, and the decisions that they make. The mother made a comment, in a very anguished voice, "I never thought that my daughter would grow up to marry a black man!"

One more thing about this. We see a lot of people, either returned missionaries or others, who marry people from other countries. I have several friends from my mission who married Chinese girls, and know several people who married girls from South America. The cultural differences between someone who grew up in Utah and someone who grew up in Chile are far greater, I would think, than a white and black American, yet this quote is often used by those who seem most concerned with the latter, rather than the former. I have never heard anyone make a comment about a marriage to a Chinese or South American girl, but I have heard comments about Black/White marriages. Not many, thankfully, but there is some of that attitude out there.

There are many people in the church who hold these racist views. I remember being taught them in the church. I'm going to make sure my son and daughter are not taught them.

I once made a provocative (and I believe true) statement on CB, when I said that if you would never consider dating a member of a different race, out of hand, then you are a racist. A huge contingent opposed my statement.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

For you to isolate the racial component of what President Kimball said robs his comment of its true context. Why did he list those items? Because they were all "risk factors" in marriage that led to higher rates of divorce.

The MSNBC article you cited earlier documented that very fact.

Spoken like a true actuary.

Should we start counseling youth to avoid marrying outside their socio-economic class? I am sure that can be documented as carrying some degree of additional risk. Should we discourage people from marrying someone with a chronic disease? Where do we draw the line? And what is the reason for the additional risk? Could it be that the pressures from a society struggling to overcome racism may have something to do with it?

Just because something can be shown to contain an incremental risk doesn't mean that it is a moral or appropriate form of counsel.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The truth is, most of our kids will marry in the church and that makes the odds of them marrying anyone who has African heritage so small as to not even seriously think about. Of Latin ancestory is a completely different question. That is much more likely. I can't even count the number of dopey looking guys I have met who go on their missions to South America and manage to bag some exotic beauty. But here is my sexist comment: most of us worry far less about who our sons marry than who our daughters do. Am I wrong on that?

If you were a black member of the church, your perspective would change a bit I would think. I.e., the vast majority of the candidates for marriage are of a different race.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

But here is my sexist comment: most of us worry far less about who our sons marry than who our daughters do. Am I wrong on that?

Good point. I think that might be true for me. I should think about that. Two reasons I think of:

--issue of the man being the breadwinner and primary responsible for quality of life issues
--men seem to be more prone to vices than women, making it more difficult for a woman to choose correctly