Carry over from CB to Archaea...

[All-American]

You're absolutely right-- it IS a gross misrepresentation.

The point is, I'd be awfully careful about how we are representing other religions when our own religion can be represented in just as awful of terms. Islam may or may not be as passive as Mormonism, but we of all people should know how beneficial it is to point fingers.

[DirtyHippieUTE]

Originally Posted by All-American

You're absolutely right-- it IS a gross misrepresentation.

The point is, I'd be awfully careful about how we are representing other religions when our own religion can be represented in just as awful of terms. Islam may or may not be as passive as Mormonism, but we of all people should know how beneficial it is to point fingers.

I think this a fairly accurate expression of how I feel.

If for some reason there was a big uprising of fundamentalist Mormons who felt that the rest of the US was oppressing them, I could see some wack job going out and setting up a ranch a-la-Waco. If this happened often enough many people would have an easy time going along with All-American's misrepresentation.

[Archaea]

However, 20th and 21st Century Christianity is one of the few ameliorative influences of the world.

One can read Buddhist teachings and find passivism. Christian teachings for charity, same for Judaism, even Hinduism (which is somewhat racist).

However, if you read the whole of Islam, it is easily misdirected for violence.

[All-American]

At the same time, in the whole of its history, Christianity has been the root of a whole lot of bloodshed-- probably more so than any other religious movement. I'm not so sure I'd argue that Christianity isn't easily misdirected for violence.

And no fair using big words like ameliorative.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by All-American

At the same time, in the whole of its history, Christianity has been the root of a whole lot of bloodshed-- probably more so than any other religious movement. I'm not so sure I'd argue that Christianity isn't easily misdirected for violence.

And no fair using big words like ameliorative.

The Dark Ages version of Christianity was the source of much bloodshed. The political versions of colonial Christianity. Yes, however, once Christianity began returning to its roots, it turned contemplative.

If Islam returns to its roots, it will remain violent.

[DirtyHippieUTE]

Originally Posted by Archaea

If Islam returns to its roots, it will remain violent.

True, but only until all of us infidels are dead... Then they'll be peaceful!

[realtall]

Originally Posted by All-American

You're absolutely right-- it IS a gross misrepresentation.

The point is, I'd be awfully careful about how we are representing other religions when our own religion can be represented in just as awful of terms. Islam may or may not be as passive as Mormonism, but we of all people should know how beneficial it is to point fingers.

Perhaps I am not reading this correctly but it sounds like you are saying that we shouldn't point fingers at Islam because Mormonism can be represented just as badly.

I am very hesitant to blame a particular religion for the problems in the world but, on the other hand, many of the current terrorism acts in the world are commited by folks claiming the backing of Allah. When 9/11 oocurred, almost all(if not all) the countries in the world, including the Islam theocracies officially condemned the action even while those in their governemts silently(and not so silently) sympathized with the actions of the hijackers. The attitude around the proverbial islamic water cooler seemed to be, 'They shouldn't really have done that but America REALLY had it coming.' As others acts have been commited since(Spain, London), the same routine has been repeated. And still no fatwah has been issued by islam leaders(the religious leaders) to launch a concerted effort to bring all the violence to a stop.

While many, many muslims are peaceful and just want to be left alone to live their lives, the religion that they belong to does not appear to regard the stopping of the bloodshead as a priority. When it does, THAT is when Islam will become truely a great religion.

[Archaea]

Good post realtall.

No concerted effort for peaceful resolution by Arab and Muslim moderates. That's a major problem in taking the religion seriously.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by realtall

Perhaps I am not reading this correctly but it sounds like you are saying that we shouldn't point fingers at Islam because Mormonism can be represented just as badly.

I am very hesitant to blame a particular religion for the problems in the world but, on the other hand, many of the current terrorism acts in the world are commited by folks claiming the backing of Allah. When 9/11 oocurred, almost all(if not all) the countries in the world, including the Islam theocracies officially condemned the action even while those in their governemts silently(and not so silently) sympathized with the actions of the hijackers. The attitude around the proverbial islamic water cooler seemed to be, 'They shouldn't really have done that but America REALLY had it coming.' As others acts have been commited since(Spain, London), the same routine has been repeated. And still no fatwah has been issued by islam leaders(the religious leaders) to launch a concerted effort to bring all the violence to a stop.

While many, many muslims are peaceful and just want to be left alone to live their lives, the religion that they belong to does not appear to regard the stopping of the bloodshead as a priority. When it does, THAT is when Islam will become truely a great religion.

My argument is not that we should avoid pointing fingers because we can look bad at times to.

My point is, be careful about what you say/hear/believe. If the true church of Jesus Christ can be easily portrayed as being a sinister evil, then a religion that is not can be so portrayed even more easily. My point is a plea to avoid falling into the trap of the propoganda machine that inevitably occurs during times of war. We stand to gain nothing by demonizing those on the other side of the line.

I recognize that many honest evaluations of the available evidence show that there is much that is evil at the root of Islam. I don't think that the struggle with Islam will end, however, if we keep bringing it up. If we can separate militant extremism from all traces of the religion of Islam in our own perception, and show peace-loving muslims that there is a place in the world for them, we will have won the most important battle of the war.

[realtall]

Originally Posted by All-American

I recognize that many honest evaluations of the available evidence show that there is much that is evil at the root of Islam. I don't think that the struggle with Islam will end, however, if we keep bringing it up. If we can separate militant extremism from all traces of the religion of Islam in our own perception, and show peace-loving muslims that there is a place in the world for them, we will have won the most important battle of the war.

I just don't know how we can avoid bringing up the current violence tied directly to Islam. That's tantamount to pretending that its not there because 'we have problems too.' I also don't deny that Mormonism has had its problems but whatever evil was done in the church's name was dwarfed by far by the single act of September 11th.

And lastly, I have no idea how we can seperate Islam from the miltant extremeism within when Islam itself is unwilling to do so. I could accept it more if Islam was struggling terribly to seperate itself from this virus but it isn't. Its inaction in these regards is nothing less than criminal.


I am not condeming Islam and everyone in it. I am just condeming those leaders in control who are perpetuating violence even as we speak towards the west in general and America specifically.

And anyone else who may offend them.