If you found out that the Golden Plates never existed, would you still be a Mormon?

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

It's always struck me as extremely shallow for anyone to found their faith on the "witnesses'" statements, for many reasons. For one thing, they are so lacking in credibility that they wouldn't be admissible in a court of law for the simple reason that an original signed document can't be produced and there is no evidence such a thing ever existed. Which is ironic, since sworn testimony of witnesses tries to ape a court of law's means for finding truth. This reminds me of those Christian "news networks" aping real news networks. Moreover, yes, there are many more believable explanations for the statements than that they really saw golden plantes and angels, including, yes, that all of these men, most of whom were named Whitmer, lied. That's a lot more believable than the alleged content of the "testimony." I'd love to cross-examine any of them. I'd have a riotous time.

I can understand your belief that it was a lie. To me it was either a lie or it was true. I don't think it was some hallucination that lasted for months and months.

[ChinoCoug]

Haven't the Brethren made it clear that if the plates didn't exist, we have a free pass to leave and party?

I personally would have a hard time leaving, and it's not primarily because of social reasons (as is with CH Coug).

I've invested so much in this faith system, have gotten so much back, and have relied on the LDS God my entire life, I wouldn't know what to do if I left. There are other religions out there, but I don't know any that demands so much and offers so much in return.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

I've invested so much in this faith system, have gotten so much back, and have relied on the LDS God my entire life, I wouldn't know what to do if I left. There are other religions out there, but I don't know any that demands so much and offers so much in return.

Since when did somebody need religion to find God, Jesus or the HG?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Since when did somebody need religion to find God, Jesus or the HG?

good point. I guess it's possible if you have a hyper-Calvinistic God who can pull you in and transform your life.

But without the lifestyle code the Church offers, I don't think the incentives are enough for me to invest too much in my relationship with God.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

good point. I guess it's possible if you have a hyper-Calvinistic God who can pull you in and transform your life.

But without the lifestyle code the Church offers, I don't think the incentives are enough for me to invest too much in my relationship with God.

I think this is consistent with most church going folk, most feel that without an organized religion they cannot efficiently have a consistent relationship with God.

As far as the plates are concerned not only 11 were able to see and handle the plates, I know many here think the JOD is full of inconsistency but here's an interesting BY quote:

'Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel. One of the Quorum of the Twelve-a young man full of faith and good works, prayed, and the vision of his mind was opened, and the angel of God came and laid the plates before him, and he saw and handled them, and saw the angel, and conversed with him as he would with one of his friends; but after all this, he was left to doubt, and plunged into apostacy, and has continued to contend against this work. There are hundreds in a similar condition.'

[JohnnyLingo]

Have you asked to have your name removed from the records of the church yet, fus?

Just curious.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Since when did somebody need religion to find God, Jesus or the HG?

To find them? Probably none. To get back to them? Probably need one.

[Venkman]

I'm in the tail end here, but my two cents:

There's no way I would cosider the Church to be true if I didn't believe the Golden Plates were real.

But...I could still possibly be a Mormon. The Church is a great organization and povides great moral guidance and structure for children and youth. Since I live in Utah, I might stick with it, simply for my children's benefit.

Even if I did stay somewhat Mormon, it would be super difficult to sit through three hours a week for something I thought was total bullcrap. I don't know how long I could hold out.

I'm sure if I lived outside of Utah I'd attend a different Christian church.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Venkman

I'm sure if I lived outside of Utah I'd attend a different Christian church.

I think this is an interesting issue.

Personally, I'm so completely in love with Mormonism that I couldn't envision myself attending another Church for the rest of my life, especially since I've compared Mormonism to other forms of Christianity. There are all kinds of cultural or social behaviors that Mormons exhibit that annoy me from time to time, but I also enjoy silly Mormon things (like garments) and view them as cultural quirks.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm converted whether the Church is 100% true or not.

I just feel like Mormonism is superior (for me), no matter whether Joseph Smith was 100%, 50%, or 0% legit. So, I choose to have faith that he was 100% legit, while also being open to various possibilities.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I think this is an interesting issue.

Personally, I'm so completely in love with Mormonism that I couldn't envision myself attending another Church for the rest of my life, especially since I've compared Mormonism to other forms of Christianity. There are all kinds of cultural or social behaviors that Mormons exhibit that annoy me from time to time, but I also enjoy silly Mormon things (like garments) and view them as cultural quirks.

I guess I feel the same way. I'm sixth generation and damn proud of my Mormon heritage. No matter wat happened, I doubt I'd ever completely shed my Mormonism. It's in my DNA.

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm converted whether the Church is 100% true or not.

I just feel like Mormonism is superior (for me), no matter whether Joseph Smith was 100%, 50%, or 0% legit. So, I choose to have faith that he was 100% legit, while also being open to various possibilities.

I can respect that. I just couldn't go there. The historic and visionary claims of Mormonism are just too central to my faith.