Darron Smith to be on RadioWest on Wed. 11am and 7pm MST

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Your own example belies this generalization. Americans marry outside the faith or outside their nation of orign all the time. That's waht America is all about to a large extent. Every heard of "melting pot"? Of course. Kimball's statement is just an empty banality, at best, and as I said, even viewed in the most charitable possible light seems probably inappropriate in terms as conveying a racist or bigoted message or subtext.

Let me ask you this. If you found out a work colleague with and Anglo-Saxon background were marrying a woman immigrated from India how would it sound if you started openly expressing doubts about the chances of the marriage succeeding becasue it was of mixed ethnicity? People would think you were an asshole if you said that, and you know it. I bet it wouldn't even occur to you to say such a crude thing.

If the person was my son and it was not a public place and if I didn't already know then I would probably discuss the topic with him.

You seem to have a hard time staying on topic here. You may have noticed that almost everyone (if not everyone) agrees it would be best to remove the quotation from the manual. This was the topic, I think. You want to broaden this to the larger issue of race within the church, fine, but I find that debate, particularly with you, to be tedious.

Let me see if I get it: You think the church is and was racist. Correct? See, I think i get your point. I don't agree, but I get it.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Solon

For the time? This was only 30 years ago! It's not like we're reading the ship manifests of slavers. This is our own lifetime.

The basic, "we don't believe in this anymore because it's outdated" approach is bogus. It's still in the manuals. It's still in the brochures that are out on the table in the chapel I go to for visitors to peruse. It still "counts."

Well, he was definitely approaching the end of applicability of the statement. 1977 was less than ten years removed from the end of all forms of legal segregation in the United States. Add to that most church population was found in the western United States, the advise might have been useful for the majority of the church at the time. I don't doubt that SWK was also a product of this time.

You're correct, and I think I already said that it should be removed from the manual. I certainly wouldn't teach it. In what pamphlets does it appear? Better, do we still hand out pamphlets?

I would also like to test Mike's hypothesis that many that frequent this board agree with that part of the statement. I think he is way off. I will accept his challenge to express my unhappiness with its inclusion.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

Let me see if I get it: You think the church is and was racist. Correct? See, I think i get your point. I don't agree, but I get it.

How can you not agree? They denied priesthood to blacks.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

How can you not agree? They denied priesthood to blacks.

Was as opposed to currently is.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

How can you not agree? They denied priesthood to blacks.

This has been hashed and re-hashed here too much, IMO. I think I stated my piece, and I know you did. Go search it if you really want to go over it again.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Well, he was definitely approaching the end of applicability of the statement. 1977 was less than ten years removed from the end of all forms of legal segregation in the United States. Add to that most church population was found in the western United States, the advise might have been useful for the majority of the church at the time. I don't doubt that SWK was also a product of this time.

You're correct, and I think I already said that it should be removed from the manual. I certainly wouldn't teach it. In what pamphlets does it appear? Better, do we still hand out pamphlets?

I would also like to test Mike's hypothesis that many that frequent this board agree with that part of the statement. I think he is way off. I will accept his challenge to express my unhappiness with its inclusion.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the culmination of many years of effort to secure full rights for all Americans. I agree that it didn't happen overnight. The west, though, was generally more lenient and open than the south towards racial minorities, except in the LDS corridor. I agree that Kimball was a product of his times. The problem lies in the passage's continued inclusion in curricula.

I saw it a month or two ago in a brochure about marriage. I think it was just a re-print of Kimball's talk, so it's not "current" in the sense of being delivered by a contemporaneous GA, but it is "current" to anyone walking through the building who decides to flip through the literature. The talk was right next to a Benson doozie on Mothers in Zion.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Solon

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the culmination of many years of effort to secure full rights for all Americans. I agree that it didn't happen overnight. The west, though, was generally more lenient and open than the south towards racial minorities, except in the LDS corridor. I agree that Kimball was a product of his times. The problem lies in the passage's continued inclusion in curricula.

I saw it a month or two ago in a brochure about marriage. I think it was just a re-print of Kimball's talk, so it's not "current" in the sense of being delivered by a contemporaneous GA, but it is "current" to anyone walking through the building who decides to flip through the literature. The talk was right next to a Benson doozie on Mothers in Zion.

The talk was given in 1976 but printed in 1977. The reprinting is the head scratcher. We're not printing new stuff any more, just repolishing old apples.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Was as opposed to currently is.

It will be a racist organization until it recognizes the racist past and expresses regret. Again, what a blessing that would be to members in myriad ways. Those of you who don't believe the eaerth is 6,000 years old bear in mind the rationale for the priesthood ban. The priesthood ban cuts across everything. It says it all.

They repealed the ban under duress. It was not a choice. Do you really believe a person ceases to be racist if he promises not to be cruel to blacks with a gun to his head? Were enforcers of segregation in the South no longer racist after they stopped practicing Jim Crow under compulsion of the U.S. Army?

[MikeWaters]

To have been taught since before you could remember, that blacks were spiritually inferior. It's hard for me to relate to that. But if you had been taught this your entire life, it would be very hard to suddenly one day say, "yup they are our spiritual equals" and really believe it.

It's not fair to ask SWK to be SKW, Abraham Lincoln, and MLK Jr. wrapped up in one person. And that is what we want, but will never get. He was SWK. And I remember him fondly. Even if I don't agree with his past self on the marriage issue.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

It will be a racist organization until it recognizes the racist past and expresses regret. Again, what a blessing that would be to members in myriad ways. Those of you who don't believe the eaerth is 6,000 years old bear in mind the rationale for the priesthood ban. The priesthood ban cuts across everything. It says it all.

They repealed the ban under duress. It was not a choice. Do you really believe a person ceases to be racist if he promises not to be cruel to blacks with a gun to his head? Were enforcers of segregation in the South no longer racist after they stopped practicing Jim Crow under compulsion of the U.S. Army?

you are being inaccurate with your revisionist attack on SWK. He was not perfect, but a simple man, who had the courage to cut against the grain of Church culture and history to seek the permission to reverse the ban.

you can ride your high horse, but it is unbecoming and if you wish to cast yourself as some patron saint, go ahead, whatever floats your boat. I am grateful for SWK's courage, and it was not done at the point of a gun. The world had forgotten our racism at that time.