My opinion on the change in the honor code

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Are you offering your expertise in the field of lunacy?

Well I've been known to..

[Tex]

Reading through this thread makes me wonder how I wandered the mine fields of the Nazi atmosphere at BYU intact.

If I dare speak for him, I don't think Indy was espousing a "my way or the highway" attitude as such. I think he was indicating that BYU is unlikely to significantly change it's attitude towards the Honor Code, and the vast majority of those enrolled (myself included) are equally disinclined.

Thus, someone who has major problems with either the code itself or how it is administrated will likely not find much happiness in day-to-day life at BYU. They'll constantly be kicking against the pricks.

If that makes me a lemming, so be it.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Reading through this thread makes me wonder how I wandered the mine fields of the Nazi atmosphere at BYU intact.

If I dare speak for him, I don't think Indy was espousing a "my way or the highway" attitude as such. I think he was indicating that BYU is unlikely to significantly change it's attitude towards the Honor Code, and the vast majority of those enrolled (myself included) are equally disinclined.

Thus, someone who has major problems with either the code itself or how it is administrated will likely not find much happiness in day-to-day life at BYU. They'll constantly be kicking against the pricks.

If that makes me a lemming, so be it.

And BYU needs those willing to kick against the pricks, or no progress or improvement will ever be made. In fact, it will slide back into provinicialism with no prospects of ever becoming a national university. The main thing holding BYU back of taking the next step is its administration, and I'm not speaking of the Board of Trustees, but the daily bureaucrats, and its presidents, the past two of which lacked the requisite vision for BYU.

[Tex]

I disagree that an unwillingness to radically modify or do away with the Honor Code is what is impeding "progress and improvment" and threatening a "slide back into provinicialism."

And it's quite convenient to tiptoe around the word "trustees" since most happen to be high Church leaders, and instead blame the nebulous entity, "the administration."

I'm no fan of many of the rules at BYU, I assure you. In fact, I've got a few grudges against the "administration" myself ... ask a few of my old college buddies. But this anti-Honor-Code rage that some people have is just silly, moreso the attempt to couple it with some altrustic hope for BYU's national ambitions.

[Archaea]

My objections come, even though I gladly send my children to both BYU Idaho and BYU Provo. None of my children are likely to have problems with compliance, except that they will fight like hellions if they ever do come in conflict, or "they'll call Dad to use his contacts." lol.

Nonetheless, the principle of oversight through an iconoclastic organization filled with individuals of no particular abilities or qualifications is objectionable on principle alone.

[Tex]

"There were a lot of big words in there, missie, and we are naught but humble pirates."

I reiterate my disagreement that the Honor Code will inevitably lead BYU to be an "organization filled with individuals of no particular abilities." Not only is such a statement wonderfully hyperbolic, but also startingly pessimistic.

One wonders how BYU ever survived this long, to say nothing of the thousands of students who've passed its doors, without you iconoclasts around to put it back on the right course.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

"There were a lot of big words in there, missie, and we are naught but humble pirates."

I reiterate my disagreement that the Honor Code will inevitably lead BYU to be an "organization filled with individuals of no particular abilities." Not only is such a statement wonderfully hyperbolic, but also startingly pessimistic.

One wonders how BYU ever survived this long, to say nothing of the thousands of students who've passed its doors, without you iconoclasts around to put it back on the right course.

They survived but failed to fully thrive until they left the disabling constraints of the administrators, or they traveled under the radar of the administrative boogeymen.

[Tex]

Heh, right. That may be the most unsubstantiated thing you've said on this topic yet.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to persuade me that all BYU students either "failed to thrive" or "traveled under the radar" of the oppressive BYU Gestapo, you'll have to do better than just simply saying so.

[Indy Coug]

Disclaimer: This view does not exclude the need for nor the propriety of trying to improve the way the Honor Code works at BYU.

When people are looking for a place to live or work or go to school, they look for a place that best matches their wants and needs.

If I value living in a low-crime, family-centric community, I'm not going to move to inner city Detroit.

If I want a job with significant salary growth potential and an environment where I can continue to be intellectually and professionally challenged, I'm not going to work as a lunch cafeteria worker.

If I'm looking for a place that offers me the widest variety of educational opportunities in an environment unencumbered by what might appear to be Draconian lifestyle restrictions, I'm not going to BYU.

BYU, who has no shortage of applications from people who are ostensibly aware of and agree to the codified standards of conduct there, has no business reason for changing things.

Someone may try to characterize it as "my way or the highway", but IMO it's more of a case of there are more people willing to 'purchase their goods and services' under the current system than can currently be accommodated. That fact implies at the bare minimum there is a sufficiently large enough passive support for the philosophical reasons for having an Honor Code.

That is power of the free market.

If someone doesn't concede that even in theory there is need for a standard of conduct and a corresponding need for student accountability for their conduct, then BYU is not the place for them.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

They survived but failed to fully thrive until they left the disabling constraints of the administrators, or they traveled under the radar of the administrative boogeymen.

I think there are plenty of people that can thrive in that environment because they choose to spend their time productively instead of fighting against the system.