The Church's financial situation

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Where did I say that exempted us from anything? I'm just trying to point out that the presence of imperfections in Utah County or elsewhere, without any point of reference or useful context, is relatively meaningless.

I hadn't intended this comment to refer to you; my apologies if I worded it poorly. I refer more to the church culture of Utah in general. There is clearly a sentiment, evidenced by the fact that Utah ranks so low among the states that give aid to the poor (and there's your point of reference/useful context), that participating in the church's welfare programs is enough. That may not be so true.

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

This board seems particularly fond of the "gotcha" approach; using the anecdotal evidence of a shortcoming in a community, church or political candidate and trying to milk it beyond all reason. That's a very unbalanced way of viewing things and serves no real constructive purpose, IMO.

How do we improve if we don't discuss our imperfections? I don't think we've "milked this beyond all reason" by any stretch.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

It strikes me as rather uncharitable to sit on billions and billions of dollars of endowment and blame high taxes while you watch people freeze to death in your stronghold/heartland. I hope the Apostles don't have your attitude. But they might.

While watching people freeze to death I don't care if taxes are too high or too low, whether people are too stingy as a result of too high taxes or whether they are too stingy as a result of too much giving the the Church, or some other reason. All these questions are interesting, but not urgent.

The fact is that the Church of Jesus Christ is actually sitting on billions and billions of dollars and in the shadow of BYU, in cities with 90% LDS population, 6-8 people die of exposure every winter. 10 million dollars would solve the problem.

It is a rounding error on the downtown SLC commercial development. It is a few days interest on the Church's Beneficial Life reserve fund. It is the tithing from a single week in Alpine/Highland/Lehi.

Heck, the Utah County Stakes could do a special voluntary fast like they have done in the past and raise the money overnight without draining the precious endowment.

I think the person or entity that is capable of doing something will be held responsible for doing something. The entity most easily capable of doing something is the Church of Jesus Christ.

I appreciate posts like this. So often I read posts on BYU boards and I think, wow I am just not in step with mainstream mormonism. Then I go to church and associate with fellow members at other functions and realize I am OK.

A post like this comes along and I can almost feel like I am a mullah.

The church is not a government entity. It really isn't any of your business or is there a need for you to understand how they use tithing money.

Money donated to BYU not tithing, sure. Even fast offerings and the like maybe. Not tithing. If one does not believe the Prophet has the proper authority to do with as he pleases tithing money, don't pay it.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

It strikes me as rather uncharitable to sit on billions and billions of dollars of endowment and blame high taxes while you watch people freeze to death in your stronghold/heartland. I hope the Apostles don't have your attitude. But they might.

While watching people freeze to death I don't care if taxes are too high or too low, whether people are too stingy as a result of too high taxes or whether they are too stingy as a result of too much giving the the Church, or some other reason. All these questions are interesting, but not urgent.

The fact is that the Church of Jesus Christ is actually sitting on billions and billions of dollars and in the shadow of BYU, in cities with 90% LDS population, 6-8 people die of exposure every winter. 10 million dollars would solve the problem.

It is a rounding error on the downtown SLC commercial development. It is a few days interest on the Church's Beneficial Life reserve fund. It is the tithing from a single week in Alpine/Highland/Lehi.

Heck, the Utah County Stakes could do a special voluntary fast like they have done in the past and raise the money overnight without draining the precious endowment.

I think the person or entity that is capable of doing something will be held responsible for doing something. The entity most easily capable of doing something is the Church of Jesus Christ.

You really need to stop with the freeze-to-death hoo-hah. Your question is obviously a good one, as allocation of resources should always be considered where it can easily prevent suffering. There may be a tremendous need for a shelter in Utah County. I personally have no idea. OTOH, having a shelter will not stop deaths from exposure. It will not induce homeless people to come in out of the cold, and it will not stop people from acting against their own interests, even at a basic survival level. I think you know this. You are using this extreme example of dubious application to make a point, but I think it is very disingenuous. You don't need a shelter to prevent death from freezing, you only need to open a chapel's cultural hall on the coldest nights to the handful of people out there that are in need and are willing to come in. Forget 10 million, you could probably do it for the cost of a security guard and a few meals for about 14 days total. The shelter would be to serve much broader needs and I suspect you shy from discussing those because the issue then becomes much more political. But really, this is about more than a few unfortunate souls dying from exposure, isn't it?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Adam

You are exactly right. I really like it. This next winter, regardless of whether the money comes in or not, there won't be a shelter.

It would be an easy fix to open two stake center gyms--one building for women, and one for men--on any night where the nighttime low temperature is below say 5 degrees.

You could staff it and provide food from volunteers.

What do you think the odds are the Church would do this? A million to one is my guess. It would be easier to get them to donate 10 million. But I think I'll raise the issue with Elder Bullock.

what, and potentially interfere with mutual? Are you crazy??!

[MikeWaters]

And the food could not be cooked in the chapel. Only warmed. To avoid having regular inspections from the health officials.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Adam

It strikes me as rather uncharitable to sit on billions and billions of dollars of endowment and blame high taxes while you watch people freeze to death in your stronghold/heartland. I hope the Apostles don't have your attitude. But they might.

While watching people freeze to death I don't care if taxes are too high or too low, whether people are too stingy as a result of too high taxes or whether they are too stingy as a result of too much giving the the Church, or some other reason. All these questions are interesting, but not urgent.

The fact is that the Church of Jesus Christ is actually sitting on billions and billions of dollars and in the shadow of BYU, in cities with 90% LDS population, 6-8 people die of exposure every winter. 10 million dollars would solve the problem.

It is a rounding error on the downtown SLC commercial development. It is a few days interest on the Church's Beneficial Life reserve fund. It is the tithing from a single week in Alpine/Highland/Lehi.

Heck, the Utah County Stakes could do a special voluntary fast like they have done in the past and raise the money overnight without draining the precious endowment.

I think the person or entity that is capable of doing something will be held responsible for doing something. The entity most easily capable of doing something is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Well this appears to be one of those weird situations where someone has already determined that the church leaders are all wrong, and they are right. I guess if you were in charge of church finances Utah would be a better place and no one would be freezing to death. Then you could pay your tithing without feeling sick to your stomach.

On the other hand, you might find that once the homeless shelters start cropping up all over Utah County that people find less of an incentive to better their situation and the number of homeless people in the county spikes.

Although I consider myself to be a relatively charitable person, I wouldn't want to live next door to a homeless shelter. My experience has been that people in desperate situations are willing to resort to desperate (i.e. criminal) behavior in an attempt to better their situation. You better believe I wouldn't want that in my backyard. Maybe that makes me a very small judgmental person, but I do place a certain value on my own safety and the safety of my personal property, and having a homeless shelter in close proximity seems to raise the risk factor there. You won't catch me whining about people not wanting one zoned for their neighborhood.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Adam

You are exactly right. I really like it. This next winter, regardless of whether the money comes in or not, there won't be a shelter.

It would be an easy fix to open two stake center gyms--one building for women, and one for men--on any night where the nighttime low temperature is below say 5 degrees.

You could staff it and provide food from volunteers.

What do you think the odds are the Church would do this? A million to one is my guess. It would be easier to get them to donate 10 million. But I think I'll raise the issue with Elder Bullock.

You've got some cash and you're aching for sacrifice opportunity. I bet you could spearhead something like this yourself.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm trying to get a client to postpone tearing down a house for the winter and opening it up as a shelter. They will probably consent to do it.

But I'll bet BDB types live next door and will object. It will be a fight.

The fight will be good for the cause. Because it will be over the media and stimulate public conversation. If you are lucky it will hit the national media as well.

Sometimes people can be shamed into doing what's right.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm trying to get a client to postpone tearing down a house for the winter and opening it up as a shelter. They will probably consent to do it.

But I'll bet BDB types live next door and will object. It will be a fight.

Good luck. I wish you well. I live in Utah County and I also was surprised and disappointed that the homeless shelter here was shut down with no new option.

I have to admit I wouldn't want a homeless shelter next door either. But I mean literally next door or in my small neighborhood, not in my city or county.

[MikeWaters]

If the situation becomes bad enough, eventually businesses will demand having a shelter.

If you can advise the homeless to occupy the most visible spots possible that will aid their cause. Like in front of a nice restaurant downtown. The movie theatre. etc.