For those of you who have experienced major doubts...

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Eber Howe a rabid antimormon of Joseph's day went back to Palmyra to interview Joseph's neighbors, friends, townsfolk that knew him and his family. He was digging for dirt and all of them obliged him.

When I read the accounts I was expecting to read some heated commentary about his first vision since Joseph described being persecuted in the PofGP but it never came. Not one person even mentioned the first vision. They spoke of gold digging and lying about the gold plates but not one person who admitted they persecuted him mentioned the first vision as a motivating factor.

He lied.

You're taking the word of who you described as a rabid anti-mormon, right? A rabid anti-Mormon who interviewed people who admitted to persecuting Joseph Smith, right?

Doesn't sound very credible to me.

If you don't want to believe anything about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or Mormonism that's fine, but allow those of us who don't have a problem accepting Mormonism as something for us the same courtesy.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

You're taking the word of who you described as a rabid anti-mormon, right? A rabid anti-Mormon who interviewed people who admitted to persecuting Joseph Smith, right?

Doesn't sound very credible to me.

If you don't want to believe anything about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or Mormonism that's fine, but allow those of us who don't have a problem accepting Mormonism as something for us the same courtesy.

Your missing the point entirely.

All of the people Howe interviewed said bad things about Jospeh. Many of them were obvious lies. But even in their lies nobody thought to mention Joseph saying he saw God and Jesus instead of the holy trinity.

Believe what you want but its a problem.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Your missing the point entirely.

All of the people Howe interviewed said bad things about Jospeh. Many of them were obvious lies. But even in their lies nobody thought to mention Joseph saying he saw God and Jesus instead of the holy trinity.

Believe what you want but its a problem.

I just pointed out that the sources you cite had an agenda against Joseph Smith.

And speaking of missed points, it's a problem for you, not me.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I just pointed out that the sources you cite had an agenda against Joseph Smith.

And speaking of missed points, it's a problem for you, not me.

An agenda that failed to mention Smith's primary point of contention.

[MikeWaters]

If I'm not mistaken, the idea of seeing angels or other heavenly personages was not particularly notable.

But having a book made of gold, that WOULD be noteable. And memorable.

Taq is the ex-Ute of apostates.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

An agenda that failed to mention Smith's primary point of contention.

If you want to believe that, more power to you.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Your missing the point entirely.

All of the people Howe interviewed said bad things about Jospeh. Many of them were obvious lies. But even in their lies nobody thought to mention Joseph saying he saw God and Jesus instead of the holy trinity.

Believe what you want but its a problem.

First Vision is not a problem and you're well-versed in that aspect, but if for a little pussy like you, it's a problem, so be it. Pussy apostates can have their problems too.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

"So it was with me, I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personage, and they did in reality speak to me, and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision....and though they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me

Yeah that never happened.

Taq Man: I see your point, but I fail to see why it matters.

Joseph Smith has been dead for a very long time, and the details of who persecuted whom and for what reason don't seem like such a big deal.

Did Joseph Smith lie about something at some point in his life? I'm sure he did. Was a lie canonized? Maybe so. But why does it matter? Because it undermines the credibility of the Church?

I think going to Church because you think the Church is 100% credible is a really stupid reason to go to Church, and I don't think it's the reason most Mormons go to Church. Most Mormons choose to believe the Church is credible because they like the Church, not vice versa.

It is possible to like the Church despite the fact that scripture is not 100% (or maybe even 1%) credible.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

A calculated effort? What are you talking about? You are contending that Joseph Smith presetned the BoM as a calulated effort to turn the clock back on enlightenment? I find it hard to believe that you are serious about this.

I mean simply that JS's actions were knowning and volitional. He couldn't plead insanity, at least under the Durham rule.

[Jim Swarthout]

Scottie --

I think this thread demonstrates one of my biggest issues with the church that extends beyond problems with the church's historical claims. The problem is that the church paints a binary world where either it's all true or it's all false. I have heard GBH say that in GC on a regular basis. With that binary world view, there isn't much room for doubt and people who express doubt can be quickly broomed out as apostates. In other words, the church can be a hostile place for those who don't profess to "know" that the church is true.

So here we have people like SU and Taq Man who are expressing reasonable doubts about the church's history and we have people like Archea calling them pussies and apostates. The church's tent should be big enough to cover all people, but apparently at times it is not.

Another big issue I have with the church is the constant emphasis on devotion to the institution rather than devotion to deity. Despite the church's recent attempts to emphasize Christ (e.g. the logo change), I find that the emphasis is still on devotion to the church -- the prototypical testimony of "I know this church is true" is an example of what I am talking about. Other examples include the emphasis on temple attendance and temple "worthiness" which have little to do with following Christ, the constant emphasis on church history, the lack of any real service done at local levels that impact the community outside of the ward, and the dogged devotion to norms and standards that promote conformity but not christlike attributes.

I expect many to criticize me and probably call me an apostate pussy or claim that I don't fully understand church teachings, but that will just prove my point no. 1.