excommunication in other churches

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Speaking of which, the next time you are in Amsterdam, you should check out the Midevil European Torture Museum. Besides having actual artifacts there are drawings depicting their uses.

Ah yes. Not far from the Museum of Sex as I recall. Didn't visit either, but saw plenty of signs and postcards. What a city.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

How often does the church seek out extremely inactive members, get the scoop on what sins they're committing and then excommunicate them? In my experience, essentially never.

I see the purpose of excommunication as primarily two-fold:

1. To prevent those from participating in the church that are actively trying to participate.

2. To provide a path whereby they can return into the good graces of the church and once again participate in the church.

Is that motivated by "love"? I think it often is ONE of the motivations.

How often? Quite frequently actually.

Ever been on the end of confessing a sin,,,and then having that Bishop or Stake President demanding to know the others involved? Their names? Wards? Stake Boundaries? etc..etc..etc?

It happens and they are required to ask and then pursue that members Bishop to take disciplinary action. Only a small part of me can see why they might feel the need to do this, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, and quite frankly, I don't.

And if the person speaking with the Bishop chooses not to release those names or offer information, more often than not, that is taken into consideration during the phase where they decide what level of discipline should be meted out.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Is your connection to the family with the wife, the husband, or both equally?

With the wife, though my sister knows her better than I do.

Originally Posted by Archaea

I have compassion for both, for the wife whose life is shattered and for the man whose life is shattered. It does not make me angry, but sad.

I have a hard time generating a lot of compassion for a man being unfaithful with another woman while his wife sacrifices her body to carry their child to term, all the while helping to raise their other children. Add to it that this was discovered (I don't know if he was found out, or came out) days after blessing said new baby in front of the entire ward.

It redefines the term scumbag.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

With the wife, though my sister knows her better than I do.



I have a hard time generating a lot of compassion for a man being unfaithful with another woman while his wife sacrifices her body to carry their child to term, all the while helping to raise their other children. Add to it that this was discovered (I don't know if he was found out, or came out) days after blessing said new baby in front of the entire ward.

It redefines the term scumbag.

I can understand sympathizing the the woman and wanting "justice" if your personal connection was to her. i.e. if my sister's husband cheated on her and left her with her kids, that would piss me off.

But the general idea of wanting to hang a sinner is a sad thing. Sin always has consequences, and we can't judge the heart.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I can understand sympathizing the the woman and wanting "justice" if your personal connection was to her. i.e. if my sister's husband cheated on her and left her with her kids, that would piss me off.

But the general idea of wanting to hang a sinner is a sad thing. Sin always has consequences, and we can't judge the heart.

I'm not judging his heart, although I'll bet I can make a pretty accurate guess as to where it's at. What I'm judging is his behavior.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I can understand sympathizing the the woman and wanting "justice" if your personal connection was to her. i.e. if my sister's husband cheated on her and left her with her kids, that would piss me off.

But the general idea of wanting to hang a sinner is a sad thing. Sin always has consequences, and we can't judge the heart.

In one respect, I believe it's not our place to feel anger toward the sinner in a private relationship. This is not a bomber exploding devices in a public place, a robber burglarizing a place or anything else. It's a very sad private matter.

To me, it almost appears to be unrighteous dominion to have anger toward teh perpetrator. Who has the right to be indignant? The wife does. Who has the right to render judgment? God. And who makes the decision from an organizational standpoint, his ecclesiastical leaders. Anybody else inserting their emotions therein are actually butting in, where they should not be.

I have no desire to be on the cutting edge of God's sword of justice, and although I'm not surprised by the reaction, it does actually make me wonder why is compassion gone.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

In one respect, I believe it's not our place to feel anger toward the sinner in a private relationship. This is not a bomber exploding devices in a public place, a robber burglarizing a place or anything else. It's a very sad private matter.

To me, it almost appears to be unrighteous dominion to have anger toward teh perpetrator. Who has the right to be indignant? The wife does. Who has the right to render judgment? God. And who makes the decision from an organizational standpoint, his ecclesiastical leaders. Anybody else inserting their emotions therein are actually butting in, where they should not be.

I have no desire to be on the cutting edge of God's sword of justice, and although I'm not surprised by the reaction, it does actually make me wonder why is compassion gone.

If what Tex is implying is true, it shows how much of a problem the discipline process is.

a. Tex is on or has been on a high council, administering discipline courts.
b. Tex frequently has anger towards sinners and wants to punish them.

I wonder how widespread this is.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

If what Tex is implying is true, it shows how much of a problem the discipline process is.

a. Tex is on or has been on a high council, administering discipline courts.
b. Tex frequently has anger towards sinners and wants to punish them.

I wonder how widespread this is.

I really believe it is sinful to want to punish sinners, especially private sinners. If we need to protect the community from violent criminals, or criminals against property, I can see the need of police force and I can see the need for a military, but these are somber, not happy or vengeful jobs.

In a sense, the one who desires to punish is substituting his judgment for God's and believes he can do a better job than God.

[Tex]

It's ironic that the criticism here is directed at me for being critical of this adulterer.

Actually it's not that ironic. Typical would be a better word. I guess there's always someone out there willing to defend slime.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

It's ironic that the criticism here is directed at me for being critical of this adulterer.

Actually it's not that ironic. Typical would be a better word. I guess there's always someone out there willing to defend slime.

You don't find that your anger and desire to punish is selfish and misplaced? Do you place yourself above God?