If you found out that the Golden Plates never existed, would you still be a Mormon?

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I'm not assuming anything, other than the idea that Joseph sincerely believed everything he was experiencing was literally true.

I've heard that Joseph's brother was institutionalized for mental illness, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Certainly, the entire family had a history of visions.

My way of assuming isn't very different from your way of assuming things like Reformed Egyptian was a real language, etc. I assume that Joseph Smith was sincere and honest. I'm open to possibilities. That's all I'm saying. One of those possibilities is that visions came to his mind, rather than physical beings appearing before him.

If that is the case why continue to pretend that actual plates exist once the vision for translation is complete. If you believe in non literal plates, then Joseph went to great lengths to pretend that actual plates existed. Why would he do this? If you believe they were only a vision, then Joseph was having this vision constantly for months at a time. He then later rounded up 11 other to have a similar vision. In fact these 11 people's vision was so strong that they imagined that they were actually lifting and touching the plates.

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Do you think it is really possible for The Church to make such an evolution, from a belief system to something akin to "a people?" It is an interesting thought, but I would think the central control over doctrine would make such an evolution impossible.

That's interesting, I'm not sure how to answer. I guess I think that Mormonism is maybe even more a practice than a belief system. I don't see the power in the doctrine as much as I see power in the reinforcement of the doctrine, which is done on a social and cultural level. But I think it all starts with practice. I don't know, that's subject to change, but that's how I envision it in my mind at this point in time. Perhaps a flesh of practice and skeleton of doctrine, I'm really not sure.

As for the early church, my take is that it was 99% about Gathering into the kingdom of God for the imminent coming of Jesus, reinforced by charismatic religious fervor rather than doctrine or any set of beliefs. It is from this charismatic sect that I see the evolution, with important points along the way being Brigham Young's leadership, geographic centralization in Utah, statehood for Utah, etc., all of which changed the focus and trajectory of the group quite a bit.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Tex

We're not going back to this conversation, are we? Was the Lord declaring the truth of a reuben sandwich in D&C 1?

I'm familiar with the D&C 1 passage. I understand it differently than you do. Don't let that stop you from trying to make me in your image, though.

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The purpose of the 11 witnesses was to try to refute the very nonsense that SoonerCoug is attempting to promulgate here today.

If that was the purpose it could have been accomplished in a MUCH easier way, namely, let Joseph keep the plates for all of us to see. ;-) Have them displayed in the Museum in SLC. That's the way you do it. Otherwise, it seems like sort of a half-ass attempt at refuting anything.

Response: Yeah, but then our faith wouldn't be tested.

My answer: hooey, it would still be tested plenty. Like when they do the translation and it turned out it was some ancient viking guide to mating. Now THAT....THAT would be a test of faith.

There, I just saved you some posting time.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I'm familiar with the D&C 1 passage. I understand it differently than you do. Don't let that stop you from trying to make me in your image, though.

Oh, stop with the drama already. I'm not trying to "make you" anything. The last time I asked you this question you also neglected to answer.

If you understand it differently, then out with it.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Tex

Oh, stop with the drama already. I'm not trying to "make you" anything. The last time I asked you this question you also neglected to answer.

If you understand it differently, then out with it.

Swine...pearl.

My faith is not "drama."

And bullying even as you say you're not trying to make me into your image.

You're quite the piece of work.

Plenty of people have discussed this issue with me productively. Some of them post here. They know who they are.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

If that was the purpose it could have been accomplished in a MUCH easier way, namely, let Joseph keep the plates for all of us to see. ;-) Have them displayed in the Museum in SLC. That's the way you do it. Otherwise, it seems like sort of a half-ass attempt at refuting anything.

Response: Yeah, but then our faith wouldn't be tested.

My answer: hooey, it would still be tested plenty. Like when they do the translation and it turned out it was some ancient viking guide to mating. Now THAT....THAT would be a test of faith.

There, I just saved you some posting time.

So what was the purpose for the 11 witnesses?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Swine...pearl.

My faith is not "drama."

And bullying even as you say you're not trying to make me into your image.

You're quite the piece of work.

Plenty of people have discussed this issue with me productively. Some of them post here. They know who they are.

*Tex rolls his eyes.*

And thus we see, the church is true.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Tex

*Tex rolls his eyes.*

And thus we see, the church is true.

And the contemptuous follow up that is completely devoid of reason.

Yet another confirmation of Tex as a congenial, neighbor-loving, and sincere fellow.

And you wonder why some around here don't care for your manner.

[Indy Coug]

He asked you a legitimate question and you gave him a completely contemptable answer, then you have the gall to get huffy with his response to your contempt.

Beautiful.