My opinion on the change in the honor code

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

There are too many different arguments being made here. I'm not defending all of the particulars in what presently constitutes the BYU Honor Code. I'm not defending how the Honor Code Office works in some instances.

Whether or not one agrees with the semantics of "Honor Code" and "Code of Conduct", there is no doubt that the BYU Honor Code is understood to be a Code of Conduct, for which there are consequences for failing to abide by it.

BYU, as a private university, is perfectly within its rights to set the standards and conditions whereby students may continue to attend their university. Students understand this, and agree to this. To out of one side of your mouth to support the notion of some form of Honor Code/Code of Conduct and then out of the other side of your mouth to argue against BYU having any mechanism in place to enforce this is sheer lunacy.

Lunacy? Where do you get that from?

BYU is a fine university. Many people go there for many different reasons, some of them go in SPITE of the HC. When you accept admission to any university, or when you work for any employer, or when you join any organization, it is hardly a statement that you agree with every single position of that university/employer/organization, even if you have agreed to "do what they say," in essence.

In fact, one of the most effective means of changing an institution is to become a part of that institution and work to change it internally.

And, as noted, many universities, such as UVA, do EXACTLY what you claim to be "lunacy." That is, they ask students to support an honor code, then they ask the students to self-enforce it. If a student is caught by happenstance violating the honor code, they face punishments for that violation- so it isn't without any enforcement mechanism at all as you suggest. It just isn't the all seeing eye probing the campus like you have at BYU.

Which method teaches students to be personally responsible better? Which teaches students the importance of honor and self-control better? You would be hard-pressed to argue that BYU's format prevails on either question.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Sure there is, but there is less "honor" when you only do it out of fear rather than when you do it with nobody watching over your shoulder.

Call me crazy, but I never lived in fear at BYU. This Orwellian characterization of BYU as some domineering police state is just mindless hyperbole.

Yes, the various particulars of the Honor Code could and should be improved, but to characterize it and BYU in such hysterical terms is just silly.

[Archaea]

Students attend BYU because it has good students, it affords a reasonable quality of education for a reasonable price, has a decent faculty trying to do a good job under difficult financial circumstances, is in a pleasant environment and can strengthen students in spiritual matters.

That aside, we do not have a testimony that administrators at BYU know what the hell they're doing and because they have some Nazi enforced code of conduct from the everybody's-scared-Commies-era. As somebody stated earlier, if Indy believes the purpose of higher education is to become a robot, unthinking and compliant as a servant without any obligation to complain about inequities, then I am in complete disagreement.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Call me crazy, but I never lived in fear at BYU. This Orwellian characterization of BYU as some domineering police state is just mindless hyperbole.

Yes, the various particulars of the Honor Code could and should be improved, but to characterize it and BYU on such hysterical terms is just silly.

Oh really? Because even you posted the story about "scaring" (i.e., imposing fear) on other students at BYU by pretending they got a call to the honor code office for excessive PDA. How many other students at any other university in America would even think for a second that something like that was real or something to be nervous about?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Call me crazy, but I never lived in fear at BYU. This Orwellian characterization of BYU as some domineering police state is just mindless hyperbole.

Yes, the various particulars of the Honor Code could and should be improved, but to characterize it and BYU on such hysterical terms is just silly.

For the most part, those of us who escaped the watchful eye of the Orwellian observations of the HCO are lucky. But watch unfortunate students who get caught up in its regulation, and you will come to know, it is as bad as people describe it.

[jay santos]

All the Saints have an Honor Code, it's called the commandments. I have never been snitched out by a neighbor when I tell him I don't do my family history as diligently as I should, though it's a commandment. Yet at BYU, if I break a fairly insignificant rule, I could be snitched out and punished.

What's the point of having commandments if there is no policing action for said commandments??

I suppose there could be a process, similar to the church confession/court system, whereby a student could voluntarily (and in extremely rare cases involuntarily--rare inasmuch as involuntary church courts are rare) go to a bishop, and the bishop would determine whether the student should continue in school. The bishop's determination would be forwarded to a Honor Code office at BYU which solely exists to receive these ecclesiastical findings--not police.

The bishop currently has the authority to recommend ecclesiastical endorsement. That should be the end of the policing.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

As somebody stated earlier, if Indy believes the purpose of higher education is to become a robot, unthinking and compliant as a servant without any obligation to complain about inequities, then I am in complete disagreement.

I believe that part of growing up and being an adult is to do what you say you're going to do and face the consequences when you fail to do so.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I believe that part of growing up and being an adult is to do what you say you're going to do and face the consequences when you fail to do so.

In other words, police yourself? Then we are in agreement, and there is no need for an HCO.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

In other words, police yourself? Then we are in agreement, and there is no need for an HCO.

You think the consequences we face as adults are self-imposed?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I believe that part of growing up and being an adult is to do what you say you're going to do and face the consequences when you fail to do so.

And I believe part of life is to test the limits of authority, in thought and in action, so that you can expand boundaries of activities. One should not be limited by past activities of persons past.

We must ever expand our knowledge, our abilities and not be limited by what people say is possible. We must adopt enabling constraints such as abiding by traffic rules and regulations, but we should not be led around like mindless robots waiting to be told which toothpaste to use, hoping it's not in violation of the some Nazi Code of Conduct.