Enough of the Infalliblity Nonsense

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by T Blue

Awww..... Did Jay get his panties hurt?

Sorry to have called out some of your pals as full of crap, now can we have a big group hug and just remember that Jesus said to love everyone.

Amen. It's about time somebody beat pelagius at his own game.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You state those items as a given and I'm just wondering how you can state them as a given. If we are to KNOW if a prophet has been wrong and as a result use those instances as proof, don't you need something to back that up?

I can easily see how some people may have moral reservations about those issues, but I fail to see how the prophet's stance on those issues (since we don't possess the same information they possess) is clearly wrong. At best/worst, it's uncertain.

You're leaving out the blacks and the priesthood issue, I assume intentionally, as we have several modern authorities stating that the church was wrong on this. I doubt we'll get that about polygamy, and I'm not nearly as convinced that the church was wrong (for that time and situation).

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

You're leaving out the blacks and the priesthood issue, I assume intentionally, as we have several modern authorities stating that the church was wrong on this. I doubt we'll get that about polygamy, and I'm not nearly as convinced that the church was wrong (for that time and situation).

ER, I've noticed you have a tendency to be inexact in your language.

I'm not aware of any modern authority (I assume by that term we mean General Authority) who has said the church ban on blacks and the priesthood was wrong. I do know some who have said the rationale publicly given by some leaders to justify the ban ("mark of Cain" and all that) was wrong. That's an important distinction.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

ER, I've noticed you have a tendency to be inexact in your language.

I'm not aware of any modern authority (I assume by that term we mean General Authority) who has said the church ban on blacks and the priesthood was wrong. I do know some who have said the rationale publicly given by some leaders to justify the ban ("mark of Cain" and all that) was wrong. That's an important distinction.

You may be right--I haven't paid attention to the specific language. I'm thinking specifically about Elder Holland's statement (on the PBS documentary, I think?). It seems he was fairly direct in stating that the ban was wrong, but like I said, I don't recall the specific language he used.

I'm not sure it matters, in that the point is that the church HAS refuted a position it formerly held.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I'm not sure it matters, in that the point is that the church HAS refuted a position it formerly held.

I thought the point was whether or not the prophet is ever "wrong." Indy was questioning the premise for that assumption, and you appeared to defend it.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

There is a spiritual aspect to this that is missing in this discussion. I for one coudn't care less what % of the time the prophet is right/wrong. I believe that I will be blessed for following his counsel, regardless. And I would apply this to other leaders as well. Obedience brings blessings.

But then maybe I'm a mullah.

Why would you be blessed for obeying false counsel? I've never been able to understand that logic. Does your God bless falseness? It's not a prophets job to make commandments. I can't believe in a God that requires us to follow false counsel and then blesses us for it.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

I do know some who have said the rationale publicly given by some leaders to justify the ban ("mark of Cain" and all that) was wrong. That's an important distinction.

Which is why I left it out.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

It is impossible for the Tex and Indys of the world to admit that the President of the Church to have been wrong in leading the Church because they choose not to make a distinction between the administrative role of the man and the prophetic role of the man. To them a policy sent out from the bowels of HQ, if blessed by the man, is of the same import and authority as a pronouncement preceded by "Thus saith the Lord". As they have been taught by ETB.

So when confronted by a clear example of a President of the Church getting it exactly wrong, they will argue the facts into absurdity and when completely cornered, fall back on the argument that it was God's will to test the people--God wanted the bad result in disharmony with the direction from the President of the Church to test the people's faith (they say).

The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the iron mission sent by Brigham Young to Iron County UT. He told them that God had revealed to him that Iron County would be the site of great foundries and iron production facilities, that the ground was rich with good iron ore. It won't be and the ground isn't. For two years experienced iron working converts from Europe worked themselves to the bone without being able to succeed in making iron--a significant problem was there was no steady source of power to run the bellows to keep the fire hot enough to melt the poor quality ore they did find--spring flash floods would wash out the dams they built in the winter and what remained would go dry by mid-summer.

After the second year Brigham told the iron mission saints that if they didn't produce iron in year three they would be excommunicated. (Yes this really happened, it is all documented in Great Basin Kingdom by Arrington.) They hooked up all their horses and cows in shifts to a giant wheel to produce the power to the bellows and made a small quantity of poor quality iron. It was loaded into a wagon and on poor soul was sent to take it to Brigham Young. About 1/2 of the rest felt the poor results wouldn't be sufficient and please the President of the Church and so they took off to avoid consequences and to get out of the hell that the iron mission had become. Most of those who left ended up being the Mormons who founded and settled San Bernadino California under changed names (to hide from the wrath of BY).

Now if this isn't a clear example of the President of the Church clearly and totally being wrong, you can slap my arse and call me Sally. But count on Tex and Indy of finding a way to explain that the one cart of poor iron the third year was the fulfillment of the prophesy or maybe they will say that even though there is no prospect of iron coming out of Iron County Utah in this epoch, maybe sometime after the earth is turned to a sea of glass (or something like that) it will happen. Or they will say God was just testing the people and the President of the Church wasn't wrong, he really knew there would be no iron there, he was just testing the people. Or some other such fetid dung of an argument.

I sympathize with those who cannot admit failure in their leaders. They live in a house of cards which will someday most likely fall down and (to horribly mix metaphors) find that the foundation of sand upon which they have built their lives is eroding away. I fear for their salvation when the winds blow.

Of course you would waste 500 words completely ignoring my point. My point is that I personally have not been presented with any counsel to follow that I deem to be false counsel from the prophet. Whether or not someone had a misconception about extra-terrestrial life on the moon or iron deposits in Utah has ZERO direct bearing the counsel I receive from the prophet that I imperfectly strive to follow on a daily basis.

People need to stop spending all of their time fretting about the exceptions to the rule or potential exceptions to the rule and start concerning themselves with the rule.

[Tex]

Editor's note: this is the "best example" that Adam could find.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

You are so predictable. I knew you would go there, so I specifically said it was the best I could think of off the top of my head. You are a fool and a predictable one at that.

I'm not the only predictable fool around here.